Generation-gap?
Last night at Catholic University I attended the Murnion Lecture sponsored by the Catholic Common Ground Initiative; this year it was given by Jill Kerr Conway, a personal description of the efforts of a small mission church in western Massachusetts to stay alive. It was a lovely portrait of a “common ground initiative” on the grass-roots level.
There were about 100 people in attendance, but I don’t think there were more than five of them under the age of 50, and the great majority seemed to be over 60. A couple of years ago I gave a talk for “The Upper Room,” a small reform-group in Westchester Co., NY, somewhat like Voice of the Faithful in aim. There too the vast majority were people well over fifty. I’ve given lots of talks over the last ten years on the Second Vatican Council. Almost always the audiences are of similar ages, as were almost all of the members of various groups that publicly protested the Vatican’s discipling of a French bishop some years ago.
I would like to know the age-distribution of the members of the Voice of the Faithful as well as of the subscribers to “Commonweal” and “America,” and, for that matter, of the “National Catholic Reporter.” In recent years “Commonweal” has made a notable effort to attract young readers. I wonder how successful it has been.
In any case, is there a significant generation-gap here?
on June 30th, 2007 at 11:05 am
I think some Catholics are reticent about including newcomers, including the young. That’s not to say that when young people do show up they aren’t welcomed.
I wonder how much of it is sociological. Since Vatican II, there’s been every effort to set up parallel expressions of the Church for young people: confirmation programs, LifeTeen, youth service trips, young adult activities. How much energy is expended integrating these people into “adult” groups?
The traditionalists often crow about their young advocates. Is it a true trend? Or have some Catholic groups demurred when it comes to age-segregation?
I wouldn’t overlook the influece of a changing Catholic school culture, especially in the high schools. I see significant bleeding of Mass attendance among teens in my area, even as most Catholics choose Catholic high schools.
Having separate and age-appropriate activities is a fine idea in theory. How do you keep from setting young people adrift, though?
on June 30th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Is age the only consideration? Surely, retirees have more time. etc. to be involved in activities like this.
Also the retiree group came out of the era before and during Vatican II and see the disconnect between the promise of the Council and what has happened thereafter.
There is much effort spent here on youth programs.
The issue may be those in between -the group, Ithink “Our hearts Were Burning” was aimed at and Renew as a program took in a few areas.
on June 30th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
One generational divide I notice at my parish concerns the liturgy. Of those under-40 active parishioners (on Parish Council committees and involved in lay ministries), there is a fairly representative sample of people with left and right-wing political beliefs. What unites them all (myself included) is a desire for a more solemn liturgy– more prayerful atmosphere, more touches like incense, gregorianc chant etc. The older generation (I would say those in their 50s and up) are more into less formal liturgies. That divide, by the way, is also evident among priests.
on June 30th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
In addition to the age distribution the frequency of church attendance by each magazine’s subscribers would be an interesting measure to have.
on June 30th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Excellent observation Morning’s Minion,
I can echo your comment.
I’ve noticed that the seniors who prefer informality will grant little room to younger voices or even their contemporaries who seek diversity on that score.
I wonder if some may have a kind of emotional attachment to the old coffee table Masses of the “70s with leaven hosts and the refrains of Peter, Paul, and Mary’s “Blowing in the Wind” in their ears.
Another possibility that I’ve often considered more likely is that moving into more typical (in time and history) liturgical styles may bring the discomfort associated with failed expectations and the disturbing thought that their ecclesiastical opponents of former days (maybe even mom & dad or the fussy neighbor) may have been (yikes) correct all along. It explains why some women religious, for example, were so disturbed by Mother Angelica’s success.
Naturally, of course, we can only be anecdotal about this just now.
The Maid
on June 30th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I am of the opinion that young Catholics (teenagers, young adults) do not get worked up about Church politics and “business matters.” While VOTF has done a good job with sexual abuse matters, they are also too wrapped up in institutional matters. It is hard to get excited about a group who hardly mentions Jesus Christ and whose meetings are run like a Fortune 500 company (see their meeting minutes on their website for examples).
on June 30th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
As a 9th grade confirmation teacher I see that the youth want the sacred and tradition, please don’t give them platitudes they don’t want to hear it. My young adult son is also a confirmation teacher and doesn’t like the feel good music, talking in church and the lack of reverence from some. The problem as he says it is from adults and some clergy.
on June 30th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Perhaps Dean Hoge and other sociologists of religion could conduct a study. I’d be interested in the results. In addition to the publications you mentioned, perhaps we could add National Catholic Register as well as a more conservative magazine to counter-balance COMMONWEAL.
on June 30th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
All humans have a tendency to keep fighting the battles of their youth.
The issues and concerns today are simply not what they were in the 1960s and 1970s.
The depopulation of European societies, the challenge of Islam, the evaporation of main-line Protestantism make it a different world that of Vatican II, and many people have a hard time adjusting to the new situation.
on June 30th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Is this only a Catholic gap? Or can it be seen in many venues?
Two observations: Yesterday, at the Met. Museum of Art, the Venice and Islam show was pretty much an over sixty crowd between 4:30 and 6:00 when I was there. The Met is open until 9 on Friday, but perusing other galleries and finally exiting, I didn’t see many under 50s.
Today: the Van Gogh and German Expressionism show at the Neue Gallery probably had a few more fiftyish, but it too was mostly a sixties crowd.
The only events that we organized at the Fordham Center on Religion and Culture that drew anything like a younger crowd was “Waiting for DaVinci,” where there was a solid smattering of twenty-somethings. Our forum on Catholic Teens drew a good number of forties and fifties–religious education teachers and/or parents, I suspect.
Explanations? different interests; two-job families and exhaustion; growing numbers of retired people; the expense of a night out when there are children.
The only predictable place for seeing multi-generations together in New York City is the subway.
on June 30th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Hello all.
I was born in 1985 and I would like to share a few of my thoughts from my experience and observations for you to ponder.
It is true, many young people are falling away from the faith. There are many reasons for this. A big one is that that catechism for youth (at least for me) was aweful - likely a result of a misinterpretation of Vatican II. Young people (including myself) were not prepared to confront and understand the trash in the media for what it really is. We were not taught how to understand and fulfill the deep longings in our hearts. We played games and had ice cream socials and maybe caught something about transubstantiation. When we got older all we saw was an authority figure which wanted to stop our fun. So many rebelled, as they’ve be taught to do by the media. Only by the grace of God did I hear Christ’s call to give my life for the Kingdom.
Of my friends in faith now, they are all very passionate, very committed, very much seeking Christ. They trust the words of Christ: “I will be with you until the end of time” and they understand that “you” refers to our Holy Catholic Church. They have no interest in VOTF or other such groups. They have risen above this mistrust of God’s authority and embraced the goodness of the Church… and they love the Pope! Have you seen footage of a World Youth Day? Those of my generation who have kept their faith LOVE the Pope. We are the JP II generation. And he taught us to “be not afraid!”
Pope Benedict predicted that the Church would shrink in size but grow in fervor in these years. From my experience this is what is happening. Young people to see the world as it is want to have life and have it abundantly by finding their vocations (the reasons they were called into existence) and give their lives entirely to Christ. I myself will be entering religious order in Latin America in the Spring. This is where God has called me. Encourage your children to listen to God’s call. It is the only path to fulfillment.
on June 30th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Yes, Michael I agree with you, the youth that I see and work with have a great faith! They tend to be annoyed with groups like VOTF, We are Church etc. Many dioceses are having many more vocations and the Bishops are fostering them. I live in the Paterson Diocese and we are blessed to have Bishop Serratelli. There is a new Spring Time remember God’s time not ours! Just be faithful and as Holy as you can be, set that example and you never know when you may plant a seed that God will water!
on June 30th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Good luck, Micharel, and God bless you as you pursue your vocation!
A point of clarification: In posing my question I wasn’t thinking so much of younger Catholics who have fallen away from the faith, but of younger Catholics who haven’t–and appear not to be interested in the same things as us older folk.
Don’t they say that every generation feels it must kill off its parents in order to be free. Well, maybe we’re the parents being killed off! O tempora! O mores!
on June 30th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Joseph I don’t think that is true, maybe some but there are those of us that have a strong faith, both parents and this generation of young adults! I thik it comes down to being faithful to the teachings of the Church,ie. Magisterium, the Pope and tradition etc.
on June 30th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Years ago there were not these gathering like “upper Room” and the like. One either entered the clergy or religious life or became a “second class” Catholic by getting married. I would like to know how many of those going to such conferences are either ex-clergy, ex-religious or teachers or journalist in the Catholic system.
What is growing are the amount of ‘lay’ persons becoming theologians, especially women. Where do they and their students go?
Before VII Catholic magazines and newspapers took it on themselves to describe the ideal Catholic and manytimes had a more screwed up idea than those they attempted to teach. They too often focused on celebrities who gave lip service but were far from practicing Christians.
In observing my children’s friends and associates I see a tremendous cultural as well as religious gap. Most of them seem more bound up in economics and success more than seeing the richness of life through culture and gospel. (Of course with many low income Catholics economics is the obsession with art out of the playing field)
Andrew Greeley wrote a book in 1961 called “Strangers in the House, Catholic Youth in America.
Maybe Greeley did not notice us at that time. We were in our twenties.
on June 30th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Michael: You said (among other things):
“So many rebelled, as they’ve be taught to do by the media.”
“They have risen above this mistrust of God’s authority and embraced the goodness of the Church.”
“Pope Benedict predicted that the Church would shrink in size but grow in fervor in these years. From my experience this is what is happening.”
You have certainly given me hope! I suspect you have also given many others who read this blog hope. God bless, and I hope you persevere.
on June 30th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Michael,
I hope you do well also. But I should say to you to go in with your eyes open. We are a sinful church and only God is good. The indelible truth is that the bishops of our church have been disappointing in acting responsibly in protecting victims of sex abuse. Sadly, they are still stonewalling.
Votf is a very responsible organization and has done solid work in protecting victims and seeking responsibility in the church. It is too clear that too many of us follow the easy road rather than to work to keep the church renewed.
Ecclesia semper reformandi. That goes for the pope and the bishops also. Right now no one more than Votf is working to keep the hierarchy of the church on its proper mission.
on July 1st, 2007 at 11:36 am
I’ve been thinking a lot about this after my initial and quick response. I”ve got some questions to begin with.
Was the crowd at the Comon Ground lecture this year the same as in the past or was it different? Older/ Smaller?
Did the fact that its speaker was less well known than some previous giants influence attendance?
Isn’t it the fact that NPL:C and Common Ground are CENTRIST? Committed to centrism( a vibrant center) as i recall? I’ve found NPLC to be a shining example of commitment to inclusive Church buttressed by best ptactice at all levels -a promise generally unfulfilled by the lack of commitment to the kind of dialgue they propose.
I think they and VOTF (which i also view as Centrist) are not analogous to Commonweal or National Catholic Reporter as ways of judging perspective on group seperations of old vs. young (it would be nice to have a definition of non- old as earlier than 50.)
Then there’s the question of sex. John Allen’s piece this week on the “feminization” of the Church here and men’s”concern” about it may impact as well on how views divide.
I think what;s important here is that the center is not holding,. driven by the harshness of the divide.
I was taken by Al Gore’s op -ed in NYT today, quoting Reagan that it takes a crisis to get folks united to move forward.
In my own small community here, the budget threat to the science labs have occasioned an outpouring of op-eds/editorials calling on all to get together and to look forward creatively.
The sex abuse crisis and the formation of VOTF look now like a lost opportunity to respond to the Church divide, smothered by failure of the parties to genuinely engage,
I guess there’s far more in play here than the age division (if that be the case) within our Church. Just as poll numbers sink for political leaders, trust numbers decline in Church leaders. Clearly there are deeply dedicated folk among both young and old -even if their perspectives differ, but the collapse of the center will generally signal an implosion.
on July 1st, 2007 at 1:02 pm
An age-segregated society like ours will produce odd generational configurations.
The generation gap among Catholics offers excellent material for a comic novelist (David Lodge?) as guitar masses attended by septuagenarians cede ground to Tridentine masses for youths reciting their Confiteors and Suscipiats.
on July 1st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
David Lodge has already written that comic novel. It was published in England as “How Far Can You Go?” and in the US as “Souls and Bodies.” It is the very funny tale of a group of committed Catholic students (Catholic Action types) from the 1950s and of what happens to them over the next three decades of change in the Church.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Actually young adults don’t think of VOTF as being centrist. After I read Mr. Nunz’s post I asked my son if he thought of VOTF as centrist and he replied they are wrong as not being faithful to the Church teachings. He also made a comment that he found it interesting that our Bishop, Serratelli agrees with being faithful to the teachings of the Church. Young adults don’t care for the clapping at Mass or the music they are always complaining that the sacred needs to come back.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
OK, RES, what church teaching(s) is the VOTF unfaithful to? I had the impression that they were conservative. I am not, in fact, a member. Perhaps I should join to see what they are up to.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Please check out this article by Bishop Seeratelli, it explaines alot. This whole issue goes beyond age it comes down to this is the Church the Jesus started and we need to be faithful to her teachings and not our own. Remeber it is about Jesus not us we need to die to self.
http://www.patersondiocese.org/article.cfm?Web_ID=2237
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:21 pm
I don’t think the issue I raised, about a generation-gap, is usefully addressed in terms of fidelity to Church teaching, as if the older genreation is entirely made up of dissenters and the younger generation entirely of people faithful to the Churc h’s teachings. Such vast over-simplifications clarify exactly nothing because there are so many in each group who don’;t fit the stereotype..
As I said in my second post above. I’m asking about generational differences among people who are faithful to and devoted to the Church. I would find it sad to see this discussion degenerate into yet another good guys vs. bad guys (a game both liberals and conservatives can play) confrontation. I wondered if there isn’t something to understand here.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Just for the record I was born in 1933 (the year when A. Hitler came to power and was welcomed as a savior by certain misguided Christians). Thus I belong the generation without a name. In liturgy I dislike informality, most hymns of recent vintage, lectors who can’t tell “prophecy” from “prophesy”, and clerical improvisation–particularly improvisation that borders on the ungrammatical. For all that I have no desire to see the return of the vetus ordo.. I think that the novus ordo is far preferable as to structure. It could be improved, but it already embodies, in principle, the best of the vetus ordo without its eccentricities.
Nostalgia can be blind. As a child I thought it would be great to wear a wing collar and was annoyed that they had gone out of style. I gradually got over this. I still like French cuffs.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Mr. Gannon you are funny, you made me chukle. There are quite a few teachings they disagree with. I have corresponed with Mrs. Padova many times they want a married Priests, abortion, women priests etc. I could go on. Please go to this site:
http://votfnj.org/
and please don’t be afraid to check it out. They are the leaders of this group here in the orth east VOTF In fact Mr Pavano who really still is a Priest , even though he has his own church now;
http://christianbridges.com/
He is a former president of CORPUS which is also another group that does not go by the teachingss of the Churc. Now if we don’t need to be faith to Church teaching I shouldhave stayed Protestant and decided for my lillte ole self what to believe in. Some people have trouble with athourity.
on July 1st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Oh by the way most faithful Catholics are not Liberal or Conservative, we are Catholic! How can we talk about anything else than being faithful to the teachings the church? Than I just might as well go back to Protestantism. Faithful people are and should be exspected in every generation if not than there is no Roman Catholic and it is all a lie!
on July 1st, 2007 at 3:24 pm
RES, I think you may be confusing VOTF with some other group. I think you will find, if you go to the national website, that the organization is indeed centrist, and, to date, has focused its efforts on the sexual abuse issue. In relation to its study of that issue, VOTF has come to see that it is important to work also for more openness, accountability, transparency in the Church. The organization is contemplating broadening its focus to include a study of problems facing the priesthood at the present time. Here is a letter from the President of the group explaining the situation. It is available on the VOTF website.
http://www.votf.org/Speech/marypat_fox/062807.html
Fr. Komonchak, my husband and I were all set to join the other gray-heads at one of your lectures on Vatican II (at St. Theresa’s in Briarcliff) earlier this year, but, unfortunately, many of the roads were still flooded in our part of Westchester that night. Maybe we’ll have better luck another time.
I am inclined to think that one reason for the preponderance of older folks attending such events is that many lived through Vatican II, took seriously the possibility of reform within the Church, and, despite all kinds of disappointments, still hope for it. The same sense of urgency about reform doesn’t seem to drive the generation we raised. Maybe they are afraid to invest their energies in what may seem to them a hopeless task.
on July 1st, 2007 at 3:33 pm
One more plug for David Lodge and at the same time for a new book on recent English Catholic novelists: Marian Crowe, in Aiming at Heaven, Getting the Earth, writes:
“Bernanos and Mauriac had provided glimpses into ordinary Catholic homes in France, but usually with a negative tone, pointing up the parochialism or hypocrisy of those who lived there. Lodge’s tone is different, combining a certain affection for these Catholics with a refusal to either idealize or denounce them.”
Lodge is also sensitive to the profound loss experienced by many in the wake of Vatican II. In a discussion of his novel, How Far Can You Go, Marian Crowe cites a passage from Lodge reminiscent of the theme of Mathew Arnold’s poem, Dover Beach:
“So they stood upon the shores of Faith and felt the old dogmas and certainties ebbing away rapidly under their feet and between their toes, sapping the foundations upon which they stood, a sensation both agreeably stimulating and slightly unnerving.”
http://www.amazon.com/Aiming-Heaven-Getting-Earth-Catholic/dp/073911641X/ref=sr_1_1/105-9589544-3117221?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183320646&sr=8-1
Now back to age-integration, age-segregation, and generation gap issues.
on July 1st, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Joe, maybe the formula got to complicated. It was much easier in the 50’s. You went to Mass on Sunday, confession on Saturday, didn’t eat meat on Friday, made the nine first Fridays, and when you died you went to heaven. The longest you had to wait was until the first Friday after you died. It was a simple uncomplicated formula. If you were married and in child bearing years, you confessed birth control. The priest didn’t ask too much and you didn’t say too much and the formula worked. You didn’t think about social justice. You didn’t care who dropped the atomic bomb as long as it didn’t hit you. You didn’t worry whether the Gospel fit into the formula, or demanded more. That was the Bishop’s problem. You had your formula and they had to do the thinking for you.
The world has changed. You have a divide. There are those who want to question and study and challenge and have the time to do this, and were given permission to do it by Vatican 2. There are those, and I think there in the large marjority now who just want a formula. Thanks for the posting Joe and I always appreciate you articles and words.
on July 1st, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Sorry Susan but yes it is VOTF. Did you check out the website. I’m sorry they lie to people they really have a different agenda. Do any of you know the Padovano’s or are you just ignoring that fact. There is GOOD news be true to the faith and guess what it all comes together in Jesus’s Church!
Why does every one think that the youth don’t care, they most certainly do. These young folks take their faith very serious my son when he graduated from high school had over 600 hours of volunteering . By the time he was 19 he was a 4th degree KOC. My confirmation class did more community service projects than any of the other classes at our church. Do you know why, because there are those of us that try to set an example and followJesus knowing that it is not about ourselves or is some one going to find something wrong with that too.
You know what I see a group of people that are so angry at the Church that they cannot get past that or forgive. I am telling you that many young adults are faithful and do their part to help this world but they are trying to be Christ like too! I believe that no one wants to see that there is a new Spring time because they would not be able to whine,gripe and compline. Remember it is not about “YOU” it is about Jesus! I know some that are like this on both side and heaven help them if they become Joyful!
on July 1st, 2007 at 5:12 pm
It would be wonderful if the term “faithful Catholic” actually described a real person…but how in the world do we describe a “faithful Catholic”? Is it regarding the single issue of abortion, or whether someone subscribes to the social agenda (however we describe that) of the Church? A month ago it was announced from the Vatican that Franz Jaegerstaetter, an Austrian farmer who refused to serve in an “unjust war” (WWII) was martyred (beheaded) by the Nazi regime, will be beatified; is a “faithful Catholic” in today’s United States a soldier who refuses to fight in the war in Iraq a “faithful Catholic”, since it is SO manifestly an unjust war? The term, in my opinion, is rife with “personal agenda” and completely useless as a description of what it means to “faithfully” follow the Gospel.
on July 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
I served as my diocesan contact and representative for the bishops’ Justice For Immigrants Campaign. We had a national conference in Washington during mid-April which involved meeting members of Congress. (Hey, we tried.)
Despite what has happened with immigration reform, I can say that I was not only impressed, but thankful to God that the body of representatives consisted on men and women between the ages of 22 and 82, so to speak. Some might have volunteered to travel there and other attendees were appointed by their bishop, but I was glad to see unity among genarations, and that is indeed rare with many issues and topics. Granted, we come from different backgrounds and our conversations got a bit lively, but there was a common bond in understanding and believing that the campaign was good for our Church to have because it emphasized the dignity of the human person as all people are created precious by God and remain precious in God’s hands.
I know that we jaw on about many things, but there was a great unified sense of mission and great unified belief in the sanctity of life. I hope and pray that there be continued cooperation within our Church as was both established and maintained during that conference.
on July 1st, 2007 at 6:38 pm
RES: it would be better for this blog, and in general, if you, as an anonymous writer, didn’t sow confusion about VOTF or any other group. You’re just wrong. And completely off topic.
on July 1st, 2007 at 8:48 pm
My impression is that my Catholic college students attend Mass regularly at the student parish, and that it serves them well.
They sing new music, don’t have kneelers or stained glass, and there’s a “last chance” Mass Sundays at 7:30 p.m., which many of them attend.
I don’t like going there much, as a former spikey Episcopalian. But I don’t get the sense that the casual worship means that the students have casual beliefs at all.
I’d also guess that the kids attend church functions less, but that you’d see a very high number of Catholic kids volunteering in the community, living out their faith that way.
I haven’t kept numbers on this (but maybe I should), but the students in my classes who are most interested in nonprofit, advocacy communications are Catholic.
on July 1st, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Mr. Gallicho, I am allowed to have an opinion I just happen to have a diiferent one then you. Now others have spoken about VOTF but I am not allowed to that poses a problem. For some reason when ever I speak of good going on with the youth and young adults it seems to be ignored, maybe some just do not want to hear good news. Please alow others to have a differing opinion then yourself. Thank you very much for listening to my side and God Bless….
on July 1st, 2007 at 11:06 pm
You said “they lie.” That’s the problem.
on July 1st, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Patrick Malloy a while back mentioned David Lodge and guitar masses — I think Lodge’s ambiguities or ironies on that particular score are well captured in the conclusion of another semi-Catholic novel, Paradise News — a flawed book but the ending is rather remarkable.
And on How Far Can You Go, one of our favorite critics, A N Wilson, wrote that he had been surprised to find after reading it that Lodge’s sympathies were in fact with the Vatican II crowd — I believe Lodge nowadays considers himself something of a post-Catholic.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 5:44 am
Yes, VOTF lie, I am allowed to believe this, I have seen it with my own eyes they project a different agenda then they claim. I guess unless I agree with you I need to not comment. I am a faithful Catholic and when I say Amen at Communion I am agreeing to all teachings of the Church. Others brought up VOTF we are talking about different generations and no one is even concidering what I said about the youth and young adults. No one wants to see it because it is good news, this generation is faithful to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, they realize that Jesus started the church but men are runing it they are not perfect. Jesus told us to forgive 7 times 70 they know this scandle is being taken care of and that if you know history this is not the first and it will not be the last. Evil will not take down Jesus’s Church! Please have Faith it’s about Jesus not US.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 6:53 am
RES: No one is disagreeing that there are committed young Catholics. That wasn’t the point of my question about a generation-gap. You, on the other hand, seem to think it necessary to repeat exhortations to others to be faithful to Christ, as if you think the other participants in this thread are not.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 7:05 am
RES, hold all the opinions you want. Just don’t air ones like “VOTF lies” here. Feel free to start your own blog.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 7:11 am
I am sorry that I don’t parrott what you all believe. When I see a lie call it. Don’t worry I won’t disrupt your day or your comfort zone and get any one in a dither any more. I thought you wanted a dicussion and I did not say any one is not faithful. Why am I even trying to defend myself you will not listen at all because I do not agree with you. God Bless…..
on July 2nd, 2007 at 7:42 am
About RES,
I did check out RES’ links to Northern NJ’s VOTF and I am surprised people are jumping on RES about this. Our shock should be directed to northern NJ’s VOTF. How does spreading confusion about the Church equate to being a faithful Catholic organization?
Perhaps Grant, Fr. JAK or someone else can explain how northern NJ’s VOTF can square those invited speakers, and the links on their site to their talks equate to being faithfully Catholic. It looks like one of the speakers does minister in a non-Catholic sect (to use the Holy See’s term) which would seem to be apostasy.
I looks to me like the late Jerry Falwell agreed with more Magisterial teachings than is evidenced by these speakers and he never claimed to be in union with Rome.
I don’t see where RES is being inaccurate by giving us a link to a VOTF website - he or she seems to be doing us a favor by opening our eyes. RES gives us the link and someone says, “No” VOTF is centerist without engaging RES’s evidence or defining his/her term “centerist”.
Are we being serious or are we avoiding the substance of the word “faithful” by redefining the words we use without telling anyone we’ve redefined them?
The VOTF discussion is appropriate to Fr. JAK’s topic because VOTF is, like Call to Action, mostly a senior citizen’s enterprise. Orthodoxy is simply more dynamic and interesting than what these groups offer.
The Maid
on July 2nd, 2007 at 7:53 am
Michael,
Vatican II’s Lumen gentium # 25 might be a good place to begin your search on just what a “faithful Catholic” is and should also explain to you why abortion stands apart from the laundry list of social positions taken by national ecclesiastical bureaucracies.
Yes, according to Vatican II a faithful Catholic does assent to those Magisterial teachings some of VOTF’s invited speakers find problematic. The universal ordinary magisterium - Deo gratias.
Another place you might look to identify a “faithful Catholic” would be to consider the traditional duties of Catholics. You might recall things like getting married in the Church, holy communion during the Easter season, confession, support of the Church according to one’s means, etc…..
Nothing new here. Why pretend something so simple is difficult?
on July 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 am
At the risk of fueling the fire, which is not my intention. I think it is fair to comment that there is a doctrinal component to this “generation gap.” If you look at the most active and growing groups, both lay and religious, they tend to be those whose missions and teachings are in line with the teachings of the Church. I was talking to a religious sister friend of mine who is the member of a “renewal” type order. It originally split off from a larger order, I think some time in the 70’s or early 80’s. At the time, it was 7 sisters in one house. Now they are about 80 in 10 houses, and soon to be more than 100, and their average age is 34. In the meantime, the order they split off from has gone from over 30,000 members to around 13,000, and their average age is over 70. While many groups, like VOTF, are dominated by the over 55 crowd, I have been to meetings and conferences like the Boston Men’s Conference and Proud 2B Catholic where there were literally thousands of people in there teens twenties, and thirties. The Steubenville conferences draw thousands of young people every year.
As for VOTF, I will not say they lie, because I don’t know what they intend. I do know that there publicly stated policy is to accept the teaching authority of the Church. But then they go on to declare what is essentially “neutrality” on issues like priestly celibacy, abortion, women’s ordination, and other “other issues that divide Catholics.”
First, one can not be neutral about Church teaching. I don’t get that at all. Can you be faithful and be neutral about the real presence or the Trinity or do you just pick the teachings you are neutral about? That being said, when I look at their web site it is worth commenting that I see links to Commonweal, America, and NCR, but none to CWN or EWTN. I also notice that while there are a dozen or more priests and sisters signed their Theologian’s Statement of Support, not a one is identified as Rev. or Father or Sister – they are all Dr. This, I am sure, is intentional and clearly designed to send a message. Also, in looking at that list, and at the names and backgrounds of some of the leading members, I don’t think you will find many, if any, who you would call “conservative.” Finally, at least here in Boston, when they are looking for a dissenting view, including on issues unrelated to the VOTF mission, like same sex marriage, the local media immediately go to a VOTF member for a view contrary to the Archdiocese’s. It seems they think it is a dissenting group.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 9:42 am
Color me stupid, but can “Maid” or “RES” point me to the pages on votfnj that are shocking and go against Church teaching? I’m not seeing anything but a lot of general statements about lay involvement and supporting priests.
Also, Bishop Seratelli has a very good article about decorum during Mass and warns against “creative” tinkering with the liturgy–no argument there from me–but I don’t get how this meshes with VOTF.
I also don’t see where Bishop Seratelli conflates hand-clapping, improper attire, or running up and down the aisle hugging during the peace (things that bug me) as actual sins.
I think some Catholics have taken to heart John XXIII’s exhortation to “see everything,” but they’re still struggling with “overlook much, change a little.”
I certainly am.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 9:54 am
Jean,
Did you go to the N. NJ VOTF link provided by RES?
Just click on the audio files and get ready for a trip out of the Roman Catholic Church into the Independent Catholic (sic) movements.
It seems to me that when a priest chooses to violate the rubrics he commits a venial sin and perhaps a mortal sin if his action goes into more serious matters impacting licitness or validity. Tacit approval of the things you mention may impact the religious sensibility of the people and would seem to equate to, at least, a venial sin on his part.
We all have a liturgical line we would want no celebrant to cross so it may help you to imagine a priest regularly crossing whatever your line happens to be.
I’ll leave it to the Church to make those determinations of course, my observations are only guesses, but wait, she already has decided these things. Isn’t it wonderful to be (Roman) Catholic!
Maid
on July 2nd, 2007 at 9:56 am
I am amazed at how this post has gone - I hope I did not contribute to the deep division I see here -grounded mainly in perception.
I don’t think Anthony Padavano or his wife are major players in VOTF and I repeat their goal is centrist. Saying I’m not sure, but I don’t like their looks is a sign of how the division is deep and influences folks’ perceptions.
(An intertesting note” A VOTF person in Wisconsin yesterdaty wroye that their chapter meets at a Lutheran Church because priests there are afraid of the Bishop on issues of health benefits and pension.)
This underscores why the issue of divide and the goals of NPLC, for example, are vital!
And the divide, as far as I can see, runs across age and gender groups.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 10:39 am
IMO, younger Catholics are not stuck in the rebellious 60’s and 70’s. So many who read the magazines you read are “reformers” to those of us who are younger, it is this boomer generation that has caused the loss of the sacred in our Churches. We are more interested in creating a Church faithful to our Pope and the traditions of our faith.
We have seen the fruit of liturgical abuses and secular political agendas, and the fruit is not good.
We are the generation that loves JPII. We love Pope Benedict. We want to make our Church better by FOLLOWING the teachings of the Church, not CHANGING them.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 10:51 am
Thank you those of you who are standing up for the Truth of the Roman catholic Church, it is because of these truthes that I converted and let me tell you something I will stand up for them until my dying day! VOTF is not centrist they were formed because of the scandles but if you research the folks involved they have either been or are involved in groups that the Holy See had declared dissenting please do not try to pull the wool over my eyes. VOTF’s logo is: KEEP THE FAITH, CHANGE THE CHURCH!
on July 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 am
Father Joe, I would like to see your question answered by sound sociological research.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 1:18 pm
“Maid,” thanks for the tip on the audio files; I only looked at the print part of the site.
“RES,” I’m a convert, too, so I understand your strong feelings about schism. Having been schismatics ourselves, wanting to keep the Church intact is a strong impulse. I understand where you’re coming from here.
But I also have faith that the Holy Spirit knows more about this than you or me, and that the Church in its Wisdom seems to be willing to tolerate and caution about VOTF and other organizations.
Scolding people on one hand for their imperfections of faith (I know I have many) and holding up your own piety on the other, if you’ll forgive my saying so, makes you sound somewhat self-righteous and puts people on the defensive.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 1:19 pm
One interesting indicator of the state of mind of young catholics is to observe the music they choose for their wedding mass. For this day, which is they view as the most important liturgy of their young lives, they typically will choose music by composers such as Palestrina, Albinini, Handel, Gounod, Mendelssohn and Handel. Rarely does one hear music by the post Vatican II composers and unlike previous generations the guitar mass is never in evidence.
on July 2nd, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Sorry I messed up clicked post before I proof read!
I’m sorry I pointed out that VOTF is not faithful to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t know where you got the idea I thought I was self rightous that is your assumption. What would you rather have me do tell every one my imperfections and not point out when a organization is not faithful to the teachings of the Church. Then when I explain we are to be the best example that is wrong also. So maybe I should just crawl in a hole and try to not encorage others. I did not mean to put any one on the defensive they put themselves there because some do not want to hear the truth. When I defended myself, which I should not have to do, it was because others were trying to make it sound as only they knew anything about different issues. I try to live the way the Church teaches, maybe instead of worrying about what others are doing we should each worry about waht we are doing and then encourage each other. I hope that is not too rightous for you!
on July 2nd, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Joe, back to your original question of why the attendence tends to be over fifty or sixty. Some of it may be practical. I have two children who are in there late thirties. One has 3 children and the other has 4 children. Between little league, soccer La crosse and dance, many do not have time for these type of discussions. Parents both work , and one is going for his masters. They bring laptops home from work and continue to work. Life is very busy and with just surviving. We can’t forget that and we should not attach any bad motives to this. It’s life as it is.
on July 5th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
However, one slices it, it is a credit to this Blog that opinions are allowed to be expressed. As many fanatics of the magisterium on this blog have pointed out, this list is more congenial to considering the thoughts of others as long as it is done in charity.
In the final analysis, the spirit of a blog tells more than anything else.
on July 5th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Catholic here, born in 1983, and not frequently found at scholarly lectures held on college campuses outside of the school year. Hasn’t the hand-wringing about people in their 20s “falling away from the Church” gone on at least since my parents were that young–and didn’t they go back, like most people of faith, once they settled in a city, had kids and were ready to commit to a community?
I’m highly skeptical of attempts to characterize my generation as either broadly apathetic or newly conservative. For every JPII Catholic I know, I know one Joan Chittister Catholic–and about 9 who observe the feast days of mainstream culture, drink on Saturdays and sleep through Mass. But they’ll return eventually, too, once they’re older, and no one can predict which ideological side they’ll take.
on July 6th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Mr. Mazzella, calling people a fanatic because they are loyal to the Magisteruim is a bit much. I have encouraged people to live a faithful Catholi life and you think that is a problem? Please abstain from this adolescent behavior, I would not exspect this from an adult. Thank you and God Bless!
on July 6th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Res,
Do I have to list for you the many times the magisterium has erred throughout history and the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christianity?
We become more credible when we place God and Jesus in the picture more than the magisterium. Faithfulness to God is the essence of our lives.