Oh, Snap!
November 1, 2009, 11:40 am
Posted by Cathleen Kaveny
Over the years, I have heard several priests comment that they’d rather perform funerals than weddings –and I’ve always wondered why. Aren’t weddings happy, and funerals sad?
Well, “Rev. Know-It-All,” the pseudonym for an Illinois priest, enlightened me. It’s very funny–and very depressing. You can find it on page 3 of the parish bulletin.
Here’s his disclaimer:
Warning: THIS EPISODE OF THE REV. KNOW IT ALL IS EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW. PLEASE READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE.
THE REV. KNOW IT ALL IS NOT OPPOSED TO ALL WEDDING CELEBRATIONS. HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR WEDDING WHICH WAS A TRIUMPH OF PERSONAL
SANCTITY AND GOOD TASTE. HE IS PROBABLY JUST HAVING A BAD DAY.
HT: Fumare
on November 1st, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I haven’t been involved in a wedding in years and never have officiated at one.. If I had to officiate at wedding with the couple like those described I would probably feel the same way. But I do have a suggestion. The need for a priest to officiate is only a matter of canon law. Why not change the law?
on November 1st, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Only thing missing are the battling mothers-in-laws weighing in on the size of the reception, and the relatives to the nth degree who must be invited, but none of whom can sit next to each other because of something- no one remembers exactly what- that happened on a festive occasion thirty years earlier.
Despite how tense so many weddings can be, though, there’re still a lot of beautiful marriages out there!
on November 1st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
…and, last I knew, half of all first marriages end in divorce.
What’s the divorce rate for:
+ second marriages?
+ third marriages?
Three strikes and you’re out VS third time’s a charm.
A friend told me awhile back that a fella showed up at a DSW support group after his fifth (!!!!!) divorce.
After my one and only divorce more than 20 years ago after 12 years of marriage, here are my preferences in descending order:
1. Girlfriend. She has her place, and I have mine.
2. Girlfriend. We move in together.
3. Married. Wife has her place, and I have mine.
4. There is no fourth preference.
:)
on November 1st, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Hello Joseph (and All),
“3. Married. Wife has her place, and I have mine.”
Actually my bride and I are currently in this boat, because she works in Santa Barbara and I work in Merced, which is 310 miles away from Santa Barbara. It’s not the happiest arrangement but at least we are both keeping our careers afloat for the time being. (I’m a philosophy professor and I married someone in one of the few professions where it’s even harder to find work than mine, namely classical music.)
As to this story by “rev. know It All”, I think I can understand some of his frustration. What puzzles me is why couples like the couple he describes want to be married in the Roman Catholic Church. If a couple are trying the practice the Roman Catholic faith like my bride and I are trying, then of course it makes sense that such a couple would want to be married in the Roman Catholic Church. But why do couples who have little interest in practicing the faith want to be married in the Roman Catholic Church? (For example, when we had our first meetings with our pastor we met another young couple who wanted to marry at our parish and they were quite honest about their cohabitation. My then fiancee and I appreciated their candor but I have to admit I was left wondering why these young people wanted a catholic wedding.)
on November 1st, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I realize it is an attempt at humor, and there are some amusing lines, but it strikes me that a priest is not merely an (underpaid) accessory at a Catholic wedding. If he thinks the couple is not adequately prepared to enter into a lifelong marriage, he shouldn’t perform the ceremony.
I have read a few pieces on the Reverend Know-It-All website, and I don’t think the persona does much more than allow Fr. Richard Simon to rant. Check out, for example, Did you hear Dumbledore is gay?. There is one very funny comment:
Aside from that, I don’t see much amusing or helpful in the piece. The humor is not at all consistent and is turned on and off (mostly off), and the implied underlying humility is entirely absent.
on November 1st, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Peg and I stopped doing marriage prep 10 years ago. Peg said I was yelling at them in the last session so we had better quit. In small groups the engaged were asked to answer the question about how they were going to pass on the faith to their children. After the third group reported they would let the nuns do it .. I did scream…. ‘there are no more teaching nuns’ ‘Does anyone here have a friend becoming a nun?’ Out of thirty couples there may be only two or three, where BOTH have a faith connection.. That leaves almost all couples having just one person who is insisting on a church wedding for a variety of reasons not all spiritually based. One time we did an Engaged Encounter weekend in an Italian national Church in San Francisco where the older native Italian women cooked all the meals for thirty couples. The women called me into the kitchen and one asked ‘ What’s a matta with these couples? They show no passion for eah other, They never hold hands’ I explained they were on average about 30 years old. They were passed the hand holding stage..
One of the ladies gave me an Italian elbow to the ribs and said ‘There’s not a virgin in the bunch’
If one assumes it has to be worse now .. does that make one a pessimist?
on November 1st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
In anticipation of his son’s wedding, my boss changed his parish registration from their small-town church to the cathedral about ten miles distant. He did so in order to get the lower rental rate for cathedral parishioners!
Peter, to quote a long deceased elderly black friend: “I feel for ya’. I’m just glad I don’t feel like ya’!”
Ed, would that “Italian national church in San Francisco” be Sts. Peter & Paul?
David, does a priest have authority under canon law to refuse to officiate at a Catholic wedding? Perhaps one of our priest-bloggers might know?
on November 1st, 2009 at 6:22 pm
That’s an interesting parish bulletin, in many respects. Much different than the bulletin in my parish, which sticks to the facts (e.g., Mass schedule, CCD announcements, etc.), with the occasional letter from the bishop as an insert.
As to weddings v. funerals, from the selfish perspective of the elementary school altar boy I once was (no “altar servers” then), I much preferred weddings. True, I got to go to school late if I served a weekday funeral, but weddings meant $$$, usually from the best man. On the few occasions when no money was forthcoming, the mood could get downright unchristian in the altar boys’ cassock room. ;)
on November 1st, 2009 at 6:43 pm
This priest shows that his negative outlook shows why he did not choose marriage. Neither funny nor printable. I wish my daughter’s wedding (8/28/09) was only $29,000. The church cost $850.00, incidentally. Hopefully to brighten up the usual negatives of the clerical caste, here is speech I gave at the Reception.
For sure there is no kind of affection so purely angelic as of a father to a daughter. I was there at the beginning when the doctor said: “A redhead!” You came out screaming and have not stopped since. But not screams to me. Always music to my ears. How can you measure a father’s pride and love for his daughter. She is a gift of God and how happy I am to have her.
If you want to know about Alyssa look to her friends. You cannot know a more enthusiastic Maid of Honor and Bridesmaids. That’s what friends are for. How about that.
If you want to know about Alyssa, look to her brothers. They share a lot together. They will tell you she is the glue that keeps the family together. Further, if you want to know about Alyssa, look to her mother to know where that goodness comes from. Both gifts from God.
I am so pleased to see her with Kevin. How well he treats her. How respectful he is to us.
So rich are the memories. How they make life complete.
A daughter makes the day brighter and the heart warmer. I cannot be more proud. Thank God for you.
on November 1st, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Bill, that is absolutely beautiful.
But I did think the advice about garden and destination weddings was well-taken.
on November 1st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Very nice remarks, Bill. One question, though: Would you have let your daughter marry a guy named Augustine or Constantine? :)
(Go Yankees.)
on November 1st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Yes, Joesph.. St Peter and Paul …place of Joe DiMaggio.s first wedding…
However,, Go Phillies
on November 1st, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Hello Bill (and All),
What a wonderful wedding your daughter must have had!
As it happens the cost of the use of the church for our wedding in January was considerably higher than what your family had to pay for Alyssa’s wedding. I think this is because we were married in one of the California missions (Santa Barbara), and they need the money for maintenance because the mission churches in California need ongoing restoration. In fact, we got the “bargain discount” because Claudia is a parishioner at Mission Santa Barbara. The high cost of the use of the church actually benefitted us because not that many couples want to bear the price tag, so we were extremely fortunate and were able to schedule our wedding almost to the week we had hoped for.
Going back to my remarks in my earlier post, another reason I’m surprised so many couples want a Roman Catholic wedding is the relative difficulty of securing a church and a wedding date. Since my siblings are Protestant and I have served as a musician at many weddings of various faith traditions I have learned that it’s pretty easy to get married if you’re Protestant or Jewish, because they are quite flexible about wedding couples on different days of the week and allowing them to have their wedding in various locations, including outdoors and in homes. Roman Catholic churches tend to have weddings on Saturdays only and so far as I know they never permit weddings anywhere other than inside the church building itself. I can understand the Saturday requirement to some extent, because Roman Catholic churches reserve weekdays for funerals and they need to provide multiple Masses on Sunday. But I simply don’t know the rationale for requiring the wedding to take place in the church building. After all, Mass may be celebrated outdoors and in homes (and I’ve attended quite a few Masses outdoors and in homes).
Anyway what this boils down to is that many couples who want a Roman Catholic wedding are faced with quite a lengthy wait because they have to wait for the first open Saturday time slot in the parish of the bride. So I’m frankly not surprised that some of my Roman Catholic friends moved in together quite a while before their wedding. Claudia and I were relatively fortunate and only had to wait about eight months from the time we applied for our wedding at the mission.
on November 1st, 2009 at 10:48 pm
As we are centering on weddings and funerals. let me tell you that six days after the wedding, Sept. 3, my mother passed away. I found her on the terrace serene in the chair. Here is what I said on that occasion.
How can I count the ways? Growing up you quickly realize that there is this one
Person who is really watching over you and your needs and even, if necessary, lay down her
Life for you. You know she is in your corner no matter what. And how. Thank you for that Mom.
Civi had her struggles, as we all do. Yet she emerged strong and optimistic. Always willing to encourage others. Always willing to brighten your day.
How can I count the ways? Always there. Always dependable. Always Mom.
She loved her Yankees, bread, pasta, cokes, fruits and donuts. She celebrated life and was appreciative.
She adored Adelaide and her grandchildren. How she loved Billy, Alyssa and John. She was so independent and she took them everywhere from the pool to bingo to OTB.
The one thing that bothered her in these late years was that she was not able to go out and about the way she wanted to,
Whether it was Bingo, the Casinos, the beach or just shopping.
There are so many great memories. As I said on another life occasion: So rich are the memories. How they make life complete.
You gave us so much Ma and I am not going to spoil it by crying too much. How much we thank God for the blessing of your life. How you showed us how good God is that a person like you should grace this earth and bless our lives.
It is interesting that all the words for goodbye do not mean goodbye. Goodbye means God be with you and all the other words; Adios, addio, Sayonara, Hasta La Vista, Arrivederci, auf Wiedersehen, mean go with God or Until We Meet Again.
So it is Addio, Ma. Go with God. But not goodbye. Mamma solo
Per te
La mia canzone vola. This song is for you alone Mama. Because until we meet again, we will be talking to you every single day. Please God.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 am
Hello Bill (and All),
I wish I had been half as eloquent when my Mom passed away two years ago. Unlike your Mom, who lived to see Alyssa wed, my Mom died less than one month before Claudia and I were first acquainted (on facebook, can you believe us?). But now she is trading funny Peter V. stories with my former professors and students who have gone before us.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 10:33 am
I knew of a church in LA–a popular church in a wealthier part of the city–that would ask for something like $1500 for the rental of the church for weddings. When couples scoffed at that amount, they would be offered an alternative: they could pay the equivalent of a small percentage of the cost of their flowers.
Most couples paid the $1500.
Hopefully you can see the point of that story.
I have heard of couples–rare, but it’s happened–who have exchanged vows during the regular Sunday mass, celebrating the sacrament of marriage in the presence of their full faith community. I think that’s a wonderful idea. Baptisms are often celebrated during the Sunday mass, why not other sacraments?
on November 2nd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I always wonder what the pastoral purpose is of diatribes like this pastor’s. Those who don’t need the diatribe are the most likely to read it, and those couples who might be “on the fence” approaching someone about a church wedding will have some new reasons to avoid a place that clearly holds many couples in disdain.
Maybe I’m spoiled, but the couples I work with preparing for weddings are serious about having shown up in a church to get married. Most Catholics, after all, don’t bother, and the ones who do should be congratulated and welcomed. And since many Catholic parish weddings involve a non-Catholic bride or groom, the last thing the non-Catholic needs is a pastor bad-mouthing “druids” who need dispensations. They’re usually nervous enough showing up in a Catholic church without this kind of thing.
I think this pastor’s rant would have been better published on a blog, not in the parish bulletin.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
This Halloween, my son’s junior high band was allowed to dress in costume for their all-school concert. The band teacher wore her wedding dress.
It struck me as a kind of indictment on the American wedding that the only time you could possibly wear a wedding dress would be on your wedding or to a Halloween party.
But, then, I’m not a romantic. We spent $200 on our civil wedding ceremony (way too many religious factions to please with a church wedding) with coffee and cake to follow. My mother was able to ratchet this up a notch, but we made her pay for the photog (who was a total pain in the neck), buffet, additional flowers and candles.
I put a no-booze injunction on the festivities, but my dad had a case of something he was serving up out of the trunk of his car.
Our landlords set the wedding date. Our leases in our separate apartments were up mid-July, so we set the date to coincide with our lease expirations so we wouldn’t have to pay an extra month’s rent in our own places plus a month in our new place.
For Raber and me, the wedding was not an end in itself, but the beginning of a life together, a life that has been filled with joy, sorrow, arguments, intimacy, recriminations, and compromises. It has taught me how to keep my big fat mouth shut (at least when it counts). It’s taught him not to clam up.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I don’t know whether this was really an attempt to be pastoral – I suppose publishing in the parish bulletin would give one that idea. But I have to admit, I thought it was pretty funny in that it hits on and describes many things that actually happen. It seems to me incontrovertible that weddings have become more of a consumer event than a sacred celebration, and I would guess that this is the underlying tension the pastor is trying to get at. Have a look at any bridal magazine to see how much the consumer mentality has infringed/impugned/taken over/eaten whole the wedding “event.”
Moreover, based solely on my unscientific analysis of my own experience, most Catholic couples getting married do live together before marriage (I can’t think of one of my friends who hasn’t or isn’t – I’m 25), and marriage is a kind of afterthought that is described here, a sort of formality that pleases the parents and gets one lots of gifts.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Joe – as far as I can tell, Canons 1063-1072 of CIC/83 deal with the issue you raised, especially 1066 and 1067. 1067 refers to the USCCB’s marriage prep programs. 1066 refers to impediments (listed in 1073-1094). These seem to be the only way a pastor could refuse to marry someone… however, I am not a priest-blogger, and I do not have a nice, shiny JCL or JCD.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Hello Jason (and All),
“I have heard of couples–rare, but it’s happened–who have exchanged vows during the regular Sunday mass, celebrating the sacrament of marriage in the presence of their full faith community.”
We learned about that possibility when we were engaged and considered it. This appears to be one way to get married around the time one wants to get married. But I’ve never seen a couple exchange vows during the regular Sunday Mass. I think most couples want a private wedding. We were lucky and were able to secure a date for a private wedding Mass only about two weeks later than we had hoped for (and we were ultimately grateful for the extra time we had to prepare).
We paid about the same for the use of our church as the cost of the church you describe. And we got the “bargain discount” because we are parishoners at Mission Santa Barbara. The mission welcomes couples who are not parishoners and who want to have their wedding at a California mission, which is unusual. But they charge nonparishoners an extra $1000.
We were also required to purchase flowers that met the precise specifications of the mission rules and they cost nearly $1000. But this was fine by us because it made our selection of flowers easier, and the mission has the nice custom of using he flowers from a Saturday wedding at the Sunday Masses the next day.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Hello David (and All),
“Moreover, based solely on my unscientific analysis of my own experience, most Catholic couples getting married do live together before marriage (I can’t think of one of my friends who hasn’t or isn’t – I’m 25), and marriage is a kind of afterthought that is described here, a sort of formality that pleases the parents and gets one lots of gifts.”
My experience is quite similar to yours, though I’m equally unscientific (since I have no intention of recording statistics on people I know personally). Most of my friends and students live with their partners for quite a while before marrying. As it happens I don’t have a whole lot of friends or students past or present who practice the Roman Catholic faith. My (unscientific) impression is that most college students who were raised Roman Catholic drop out of the Roman Catholic Church for at least a few years if not permanently soon after they start college. But at least among college educated people whether or not one is Roman Catholic doesn’t seem to me to have that much influence on whether or not one lives with one’s partner before marriage. When we applied to get married there were about ten other couples who applied at the same time (and we were the oldest by a significant margin), and my then fiancee was certain that we were the only couple in the group who weren’t cohabitating. I hate to be that cynical but she’s usually right about such matters.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I thought this was amusing because of how right the details were.
I have been to so many nice weddings recently, and I think Miss Manners’ take on the whole enterprise is the right one: your wedding should basically be in a style that is the biggest and nicest party you would ever throw — that is, not out of step with the kind of event you would plan if you really wanted your guests to have fun. I think a lot of brides fall apart because a lot of the wedding is so alien to what they would naturally do on their own, and they start relying on people whose voice of “authority” is based on getting them to spend more and more money.
But why is it so alien? In the case of Catholic brides, I think there is often a lot of family pressure to adhere to ideals (marrying in the Church) that the bridal couple don’t and don’t want to believe in.
I think if I were the priest I would make all couples fill out a questionnaire that starts with “why do you want to get married in a church, and why THIS church?” I am sure, especially where the parents are bona fide parish members, that the priest feels some degree of pressure to go along with the hypocrisy, but there must be a kind way to let both parents and children alike know that it’s not a good way to start a marriage by going through a ceremony that is merely a pretense.
Thinking of it as the happiest day of your life doesn’t say much about your expectations for the marriage.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Peter – I think that brings us back to your original question about why couples get married in the Church still. Do you have any ideas on that one?
I don’t have much clarity on it, myself. I venture that doing the wedding in church adds the veneer of an certain kind of acceptability for the ceremony, although it puzzles me how the saying “I do” in a church still matters when the rest of the things associated with a life of faith seem to have gone by the wayside. If getting married in a Roman Catholic ceremony is important to people who don’t care that much about the church, I wonder if in a generation the children of these types will be content simply getting a marriage certificate and having a party.
On the other hand, the odd resilience of including a faith component in the wedding could show that humanity’s orientation toward God is not so easy to stamp out.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
“does a priest have authority under canon law to refuse to officiate at a Catholic wedding? Perhaps one of our priest-bloggers might know?”
I am not certain which canons are applicable, but I can assure you that priests (and deacons!) should not preside at the wedding of a couple about whom they have serious doubts.
Our diocese, and I think many others, now prescribes a sort of computerized test called Foccus as a standard part of marriage prep. (Actually, they don’t want us to refer to it as a test, but I don’t think they’ve found a suitable substitute term. They’ve suggested the word “inventory”, but personally I don’t care for that word, either). Foccus surveys both parties about their attitudes toward some of the most important dimensions of a life together: in no particular order, communication, sex, finances, children and so on. The scores are compared, and if serious gaps are noted between the two responses on a particular topic, those become occasions for further conversation. The term “test” is disliked because you can’t flunk it; there is no objective, quantifiable score below which the wedding is not to take place. But if there are gaps all over the chart, it’s certainly important that the couple be advised that they probably have some major issues looming.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Sometimes satire consists of describing what actually happens. That’s how I read Fr. Know-it-all’s column. It’s all too true, from the absurd and ruinous expenses to the inebriation of the wedding party to the impending disappointment of the bride.
I don’t doubt that there is an element of venting to the article (I believe he is a current or former seminary professor, and I wonder sometimes whether seminarians are one of his target audiences). Still, istm that there is also a pastoral side to it. If his parish readership consists of parents, which seems reasonable, then it would seem to be a call for parents to catechize their children on the genuine meaning of marriage.
FWIW – I frequently counsel the couples I’m working with to not go into debt to pay for their wedding: it’s the beginning, not the end, of the journey together.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
“I think if I were the priest I would make all couples fill out a questionnaire that starts with “why do you want to get married in a church, and why THIS church?” I am sure, especially where the parents are bona fide parish members, that the priest feels some degree of pressure to go along with the hypocrisy, but there must be a kind way to let both parents and children alike know that it’s not a good way to start a marriage by going through a ceremony that is merely a pretense. ”
I think your first question is outstanding, Barbara – feel free to write and grant liberal permission to use the remainder of the questionnaire :-).
(In reality, we do walk couples through a questionnaire, although quite a bit if it relates to some of the impediments in canon law, i.e. Were you married previously? Is your spouse-to-be a close blood relative? etc.)
I don’t do a ton of weddings, but I have to say for the couples I’ve worked with so far that both parties really have wanted to get married. At least in my cases, I haven’t seen any rank hypocrisy. This may not be a hopeful comment, but I think that so many couples opt for alternate venues now that the blatantly uncommitted steer clear of the church for their weddings – we make them jump through so many hoops.
Thinking back to how young and naive and immature I was in my ’20’s, I almost think that it’s a miracle that any marriage lasts more than a few years. (And who’s to say there isn’t an element of the miraculous in some marriages?)
on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Hello David (and All),
“Peter – I think that brings us back to your original question about why couples get married in the Church still. Do you have any ideas on that one?”
I really don’t, and I suspect that one would get quite a variety of answers if one queried couples who get married in the Roman Catholic Church. In our particular case, to put it rather rudely we had no choice. Originally I had hoped we could have a private ceremony officiated by a Protestant minister who is our friend because I was afraid we would have to wait an eternity if we married in the Roman Catholic Church. When I learned that the penalty for marrying outside the Roman Catholic Church is permanent exclusion from Communion I threw a royal tantrum but when I calmed down I agreed we had to marry in the Roman Catholic Church no matter how long it would take. As it happened our process was quite smooth and in retrospect I’m glad we did it this way. But I admit it sometimes bothers me that the RCC in effect coerces people to accept certain Sacraments.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:04 pm
The priest is not really necessary for marriage to take place. Yet as a community it makes sense that the community should bless and be a part of this union. What should happen is that couples get married at a Sunday Mass. This would make it a real community affair. And if the hierarchy really wants to change, give them the collection too. Then a lot of people would want to get married in the church. And no doubt criteria will be much stricter.
Anyway , it is a matter to be brainstormed. Not left to uncreative people in the Vatican.
on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
David, thanks for the references in the 1983 code.
Jim, FOCCUS is, properly speaking, an “inventory”, a standard term in counseling and human resources development, among other fields in education and psychology. As you’ve noted, it’s not a “test” since there are no right or wrong answers. It’s intended to promote discussion.
I was not annoyed by the essay in the parish bulletin. I think the writer intended the piece to stir some degree of thinking about what the wedding ultimately entails.
My younger brother and sister-in-law, who married at 18-1/2 and 16-1/2, celebrated 41 years together earlier this year. My brother says he’s concluded it’s pretty much “the luck of the draw.” I suspect it’s more, but, as you’ve suggested, Jim, there may be “an element of the miraculous in some marriages.” In their case, our assistant pastor, who was also chairman of the sociology department at a local Catholic college, refused to officiate at their wedding. So they eloped!
on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Bill, the more I think about it, the more I like your suggestion that couples get married at one of the weekend masses. During my years as a cathedral parishioner, I remember seeing at least one wedding (albeit a simple affair) at our Sunday liturgy. On one or two other occasions, I recall masses at which a couple repeated their vows or had their marriage “validated” as a sacramental marriage since they had married outside the church years earlier.
If we want our children baptized at a weekend liturgy, why not do the same for marriage? In other words, incorporate the community in an important family event.
Ed, re: Sts Peter & Paul, I’ve seen it featured in more than one TV program or mainstream film. (For those of you not in the know, it has, if I recall, two towers and is located just a few short blocks from Coit Tower and not too far from Fisherman’s Wharf.)
on November 2nd, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Sts Peter and Paul married about 150 couples a year in the 90s. 98% were not parishioners.
The Italian national church status agve them the rifgt to marry anyone with italian heritage [ losely interputed] Why?? see link .. it will answer why some not too spiritual chose a church wedding.. answer any questions.
http://www.stspeterpaul.san-francisco.ca.us/church/church_interior.htm
On another matter’ Church marriages have declined about 50% since 1990. That leaves just 50% of the Church marriages left and these cannot be counted on to preserve/pass on the faith… As some posts and Rev. NoItAll imply …this fact says more than all the priest shortage stories combined about where the church is headed. Checking CARA stats at Georgetown we can find a lot of numbers about clerics and religious but no revealing #s about the laity. Where are the Diocesan Oct counts of Mass attendence per diocese?. . #s of infant/RCIA {same store sales?] baptisms? Can’t we get someone to collate these #s from each diocese?
What’s really happening is the transparency we all need..
on November 2nd, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Hello Bill (and All),
I also think your suggestion is very interesting. What I suspect is that if exchanging wedding vows during Sunday Masses were somehow to become the norm here in America then the number of couples who marry in the Roman Catholic Church would drop somewhat because couples prefer a ceremony of their own. I also wonder if the non-Roman Catholic family and friends of couples who wed at a Sunday Mass would be somewhat less willing to attend and participate than they would at a private ceremony. While our own wedding was a (Saturday afternoon) Mass, I was a little worried that our family and friends who are not Roman Catholic might feel ill at ease or excluded because they would not be familiar with the ritual and would be excluded from Communion. In the end I think my worries were unfounded but I think it’s probably a more serious issue with the family and friends of some couples.
on November 3rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Ed, sign me up for a weddin’ at the church!
(now if I can just find that “Italian” bride :)
on November 3rd, 2009 at 5:04 pm
This is a difficult thread for me personally. I understand and sympathize completely with the priest who wrote and published this. (now, I do not think it was wise to put this in a church bulletin; it falls in that category of “write when you are angry, frustrated; put it away and then come back to it. You will probably destroy it)
The current matrimonial system is broken at best:
- sacramental preparation (can be excellent; can be non-existent; constantly struggles with our culture)
- sacramental canon law system on Petrine/Pauline privileges; re-marriage; rules to marry; divorce and annulments. Bifurcated belief system that distinguishes between sacramental marriage and civil marriage unless someone wants to change a state law. Utterly confusing to even an experienced catholic (again, have seen some wonderful things done through the annulment process – but few and far between – it drives a wedge more often than not)
- this truly is an area that lacks a comprehensive catechical tradition. How many catholic high schools focus on the sacrament and realities of marrige? how many catholic colleges?
- here is a link to the marriage document being voted on next week by the USCCB: http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/bishops-draft-pastoral-warns-dangers-marriage – given the comments above we will have lots of folks trying to get married who are “intrinsically evil” e.g. cohabitation.
- remember one associate pastor who refused to do wedding prep unless the cohabiting couple separated and lived as brother and sister until the wedding…not sure how he supervised this?
- had another teacher who used to talk about the need for the church to recognize and acknowledge maturation steps – sacramental marriage in a church would happen after a number of years and a couple who had experienced life together for a time – there would be church steps; sort of like minor orders leading up to ordination.
- love the idea of having the sacrament within a week-end mass but you are turning the current church and US culture upside down. Marriage is a big business.
- have seen the same struggle go on over the Quincinera’s in Hispanic culture….poor family spends $10K on a 14 year old ceremong that looks like a small wedding without groom.
- my goal was always to build a relationship with the couple; do the best you can in preparation; involve family & sponsor couples, and pray that the grace and hope of God will eventually work. We had arbitrary rules such as – must be a registered parishioner for 6 months before the wedding; old pastor still published wedding banns, etc. Music and style of ceremony was pretty strait-laced. If not, we did not do the wedding and lost some parishioners over this.
It is not an easy task and even good pastoral skills are heavily tested in the two wedding seasons. Can you imagine being a parish priest and trying to enforce this new marriage document from the USCCB?
on November 3rd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
You mean you would have turned Kevin and Jill down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEiN0
I should say, my mother loved this.
on November 3rd, 2009 at 6:09 pm
That’s one of the best arguments against liturgical dance I’ve ever seen :-)
on November 3rd, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Bill,
When Peg and I started to present Retrouvaille programs [troubled marriages] in the 80s we began to do a tougher/realistic marriage prep program. We annouced in the beginning that we would not do a lot of ‘happy talk’. We told them Happy talk will be coming from the caterer and florist/band/etc… because they are getting the big money!
Couples appreciated ‘realistic’ presentations and discussions. We actually started to count the postponements and cancellations. Couples are not stupid and they are fully aware that they are going on a tough journey. They want mentors they can trust! and not a lot of no-no notions that seem to be in the USCCB marriage draft. That the bishops’ draft has a ‘pony’ in about the condemnation of same sex civil marriages is typical for a no pay attention..
as someone has already posted, where were the bishops when hetro sixth times marriges are performed at city hall by an Elvis impersonator? Don’t we have enough on our pastoral plate with worrying to care about what happens in the city hall basements?
on November 3rd, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Barbara, I don’t know how cynical your mother is, but she might like the JK Divorce Dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbr2ao86ww0
These guys look like professional dancers to me.
on November 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
After reading these comments, my partner and I may just pass on the opportunity if it ever becomes legal in California, thank you very much! After 37 years, we don’t need this.