More Catholic news in the NYT
I updated my post below about the NYT series on “international priests” to link to the second and third installments (today’s third and final article is here). I found all three articles fascinating — it’s a topic that can be considered from any number of angles, and it only gets more complicated as you go. Check out the multimedia components too — some great photography and audio there. (I think you need to hear the Kenyan priest’s voice to get the most out of his story!)
Today’s Times also has a city-section article about a parish in Brooklyn that has closed, and some efforts being launched to save the building from destruction. It seems there are many people with justifiable emotional attachments to Our Lady of Loreto, but not many of them still live in the neighborhood or worship regularly at the church. I’ve never seen the church in person, but the pictures suggest a stately, beautiful building, one of those labor-of-love immigrant parishes that sprouted in the city in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. (You can see some photos of the church and the neighborhood here.) The neighborhood has changed since then, and low-income housing — the reported plan for the ground where the church stands — would very likely be of greater service to its residents. But you can’t blame people for feeling sentimental about this piece of their history.
By the way, New Yorkers, tomorrow is the final day of the “Catholics in New York” exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York. Do treat yourself to a visit if you possibly can — it’s a wonderful way to gain an appreciation for the culture, the era and the people that parishes like Our Lady of Loreto represent.
My thanks to Mollie from an old New Yorker who lives now far away.
Reading about the Brooklyn piece made me think about the thread on serving the poor in NYC -hardly a comment.
I keep wondering if we had more commitent to the Church serving the poor, despite cost, would that be another part of dealing with lack of clergy(as say opposed to paying clergy more?)
As to the City of NY Museum exhibit, I can’t help but recall listening (from a distance) to Fr. Bob Stern’s talk on the History of the Spanish Apostol;ate there – a talk that also touches on some of the questions raised in the 3 Times articles.
Despite the fact that (most) parishes are rather rigidly defined with respect to geography, my experience it that people’s ties to parishes transcend geographic boundaries and the passage of time.
I’m involved in baptismal prep in our parish, and my experience with young parents is that many of them have their infants baptized in the parish in which they grew up and received their sacraments, even though they now live a great distance away. Probably half of the parents we meet with each month fall into this category.
In Chicago, there are a number of parishes that served one ethnic group or another at their inception but the neighborhoods have changed in the ensuing decades. Yet family ties to parishes are so strong that one will see weddings taking place in the old building a generation or even two after the family has moved to the burbs (or wherever).
“I keep wondering if we had more commitent to the Church serving the poor, despite cost, would that be another part of dealing with lack of clergy”
Bob, if you’re saying that serving the poor is a ministry for the laity – I couldn’t agree more. We started up a St. Vincent de Paul Society a few years ago in our parish and it has a lot of vitality. (I had thought St. Vinnie’s was kind of a moribund notion, a la sodalities, but it still has a lot of kick – who knew?)
By and large what is happening in India has happened in the church often. Low income people improve their economic position by aspiring to the priesthood. Better times changes the equation as is happening in India recently.
With exceptions, of course, it remains a mediocre clergy as it has since the fourth century. Augustine, according to Marcus and others, initiated this mediocrity in the church. Very easy for abuses to occur in a material oriented clergy.
A couple of comments:
a) Jim – the St. Vincent dePaul Society and its various ancillary groups have more than doubled worldwide in the past 8 years. In fact, probably more ministry is done in the spirit and legacy of Vincent dePaul by the society than by the Congregation of the Mission or the Daughters of Charity (Vincent’s male religious order and his colleague, Louise deMarillac’s female religious order). It is a good example of the cycle of the birth and death of religious orders and yet the spirit lives on and grows via lay ministers that feel called & compelled by the vision of Vincent dePaul;
b) stories about parish/church closings can be complex – their history can be dated back to the 18th or 19th century and yet the parish may have literally died or you are left with remnants that live miles from the actual church building. The cost of maintaining these churches is expensive; some become designated national landmarks which requires a certain level of on-going maintenance. Was involved in a very difficult situation in New Orleans in the 1980′s – the largest church in the south is located just off downtown New Orleans. The parish demographics, geography, etc. had drastically changed and the religious order that owned this church offered to turn it over to the archdiocese which, of course, refused. Numerous creative ideas were tried to reach out and develop new ministries to bring the parish/church back to life and to be able to contribute to the neighborhood e.g. street people, african-americans in federal housing tenements, serving the employees of nearby hospitals, etc. The church was modified so that maintenance costs could be limited but annual expenses easily came to $.5 million a year and needed upkeep was being continually deferred e.g. replacing hurricane damaged roofs, etc.
The bishop was unwilling to partner or help support this church – a church court case was fought trying to force the bishop to support changes. Rome never ruled for the bishop which is about the best you can get in a case against a bishop/diocese but, on the other hand, the bishop was never forced to support the religious community nor the church. There was also a very vocal group of “old” parishioners (parents married in the church, children baptized there, etc. but they lived miles away). What do you do when the building has become a monument but really is no longer an active church much less a parish?
The situation has only been aggravated by Hurricane Katrina, mass parish closings in New Orleans. The church still stands but the land around it is now being used to construct a neighborhood outreach center, temporary shelter, food pantry, job site, etc. as a shared collaboration among roughly 6 male/female religious communities and working with the mayor & city of New Orleans (not the diocese).
These situations are very emotional for old time families and yet the mission of the church is not to run a “monument.” Not sure I have an easy answer to these dilemmas.
Please save Our Lady of Loreto from being demolished.
This is beautiful church. It has some on the most beautiful sculptures I have ever seen.
Please help save this church. Brooklyn need buildings like this.
Please sign the petition to save this church.
Click on the link below. God Bless.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-quotour-lady-of-loretoquot-rc-church-in-brooklyn-ny
Like Jim, I work in baptism prep and also encounter a lot of couples who come back to baptize, marry, and bury in their old home parish here, even though they live far away – sometimes in another state. The problem is, they have an expectation that we will be here, and provide the space, the services, and the clergy, yet they provide no ongoing support for the parish. Among many, there is a sense of entitlement, and a lack of realizing that it takes ongoing support – not just financial, but also the time and talent – to keep a parish alive. It’s one thing to have an emotional attachment, but another altogether to treat the “old parish” like a McDonald’s drive-through window: pay for service.
Good morning, Jim et al.
Jim, you misunderstood me.
I think the lay/clergy split impacts the vocation issue badly – the leader of the local worship should be much involved in the lives of his/her people to be able to break open the Word for their lives.
The gospel,IMHO, means a special relationship to the poor and their needs in this context.
Because of dwindling priest numbers (the point of this thread) we’ve imported or closed Churches or gone to megaparishes -all of which distance pastor/congregation in some ways.
Leaving the ministry to the poor as a job for the laity creates the climate that some have criticized in the JPII priests as being “careerists” interested in a nice place where they can perform cultic duties.
Again,IMHO, the real hope for a Church more alive and not distanced is in smaller Churches led by a leader much involved in the lives of the people, especially the poor and needy.
This approach seems to me to be more in touch with the Gospel view and less like the current situation run on a business/ beauracrcry model.
It would be interesting to hear from the Natl. Fed. of Priest’s Council what they view as the future as we head into a new year. They have. I’m sure, obviuous concerns for the increasing burdens placed on many of their members and I wonder if they feel the problems of the future are really being broached.
To add to Bob’s idea…and like Gibson I’ll predict the future ;regarding innercity church closings;
Bishop calls in 3 married deacons [with evangelical/poor ministry creds] and asks if they and their family as a team would take on an innercity church instead of closing it and he will FULLY ordain them. Will it happen ?If not in 2009 maybe 2010.
“regarding innercity church closings; Bishop calls in 3 married deacons [with evangelical/poor ministry creds] and asks if they and their family as a team would take on an innercity church instead of closing it and he will FULLY ordain them. ”
Eugene Kennedy called for something like this, probably a dozen years ago. Seems far-fetched; but with a lot of changes, it seems hard to fathom until it happens – and then we all wonder why we didn’t see it coming!
A few last thoughts on this from my perspective:
-Priest importation is stopgap, not solution.
-We need a broad based conversation on this topic in the Church with lots of options on the tabl (elimination of mandatory celibacy, women’s ordination (pace all the maximalistic magisterialists here), braodening lay roles again (including preaching, performing some sacraments, etc.)
-The role of priest should be throughly discussed, including cultic and pastoral role configuration, with special emphasis on option for the poor.
-The Bishops should think about their role: strikes me (please correct me if I’m wrong) that many operate like municipal comissioners with their chancery folk as deputies while priests and deacons are line workers.
I understand there needs improvement in business practice in the Church, but IMHO, the Bishop is to be first and foremost a pastor trying to be in touch with his people (especially, preferential option for the poor) as much as possible.
-The Bishop’s relationship as servant to his priests and deracons needs better articulation, again, my perception is that Bishops tend to operate as “I am the boss, don’t make waves or get in deep hot water and I’ll see you are taken care of (sort of.)”
Again, it would be really good to hear from Natl. Fed. of Priests council – they are the ones on the line right nowhaving to deal with issues here every day.
Inner city parishes CAN be rescued/saved and returned to life if they discover a particular mission that can attract membership for a specific purpose. In the mid-1980s my parish in San Francisco (Most Holy Redeemer) was on its last legs. The older Irish/Italian families that had settled Noe Valley were dying out and their children had decamped to the suburbs or elsewhere. What was left was a shell of a parish with no life and few active members. The school and convent had long been closed. The newly assigned pastor and his associate, a Sister of Mercy, started to notice that many young men were dying of what was then known as “gay cancer”, soon to be reclassified as HIV/AIDS. They rightly assumed that more than a few of these men had been raised Catholic and started an outreach within the immediate neighborhood to anyone who was dying. It didn’t take too long for the parish to start to see an influx of mostly men, but some women as well, and a revitalization of the parish around the ministries to the dying and the larger LGBT communities. The Archbishop of SF at the time (John Quinn) had the common sense to provide pastors who were open to that type of parish membership, what it took to keep the place alive and well, and, most importantly, wasn’t afraid of a well organized, largely professional and intelligent laity with more than a few ex-seminarians and former priests.
A quarter of a century later the parish remains vibrant, well-attended, and has a strongly active core membership of 400 souls who focus on liturgy, an excellent music program, feeding the homeless, sponsoring an AIDS orphanage in Africa, and a full-functioning St Vincent de Paul conference within the parish. The former convent and school are actively rented out and provide almost 50% of the operating budget. The next big challenge is to reorient the parish to become attractive to the number of families (straight and same-sex) with children that have moved into the neighborhood, to ensure that we offer programs and services that speak to their needs. This promises to be a challenge because most of the current parishioners are quite comfortable with the way we have become and are old enough to not relish significant change. But it will happen and we are working diligently to ensure that MHR doesn’t become once again another relic of the past, but continues to be a parish of the here and now with an eye toward the future. It takes a will, a vision, and willing hands, but it can be done in many (but not all, of course) areas where parishes seems to be dead or dying. The ministries need to be discovered, fostered and developed with a lot of hard work. The key to success is a committed active laity and a pastor who develops leadership rather than assumes that he has the answer to all of the questions.
A good history of this parish and how it changed for the better in the face of near-death was recently published in the book “Gays and Grays: The Story of the Gay Community at Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church” by Donal Godfrey, SJ, and a good view of how MHR functions today can been seen at http://www.mhr.org.