Running out of words.
After refusing to admit that waterboarding is torture, Attorney General Mukasey now says he won’t bother to investigate whether the waterboarding inflicted by U.S. personnel–now admitted by the White House–was illegal. (He also won’t investigate warrantless wiretapping.) Why? Because the Justice Dept. said it was OK at the time. Never mind that it is already illegal. Transcript:
CONYERS: Well, are you ready to start a criminal investigation into whether this confirmed use of waterboarding by United States agents was illegal?
MUKASEY: That’s a direct question, and I will give a direct answer.
No, I am not, for this reason: Whatever was done as part of a CIA program at the time that it was done was the subject of a Department of Justice opinion through the Office of Legal Counsel and was found to be permissible under the law as it existed then.
For me to use the occasion of the disclosure that that technique was once part of the CIA program — an authorized part of the CIA program, would be for me to tell anybody who relied, justifiably, on a Justice Department opinion that not only may they no longer rely on that Justice Department opinion, but that they
will now be subject to criminal investigation for having done so.That would put in question not only that opinion, but also any other opinion from the Justice Department. Essentially, it would tell people: “You rely on a Justice Department opinion as part of a program, then you will be subject to criminal investigation when, as and if the tenure of the person who wrote the position changes or, indeed, the political winds change.” And that’s not something that I think would be appropriate and it’s not something I will do.
Video:
H/T: TPM. Read more at Balkinization.
This man has weasel-worded since day # 1 on this subject. Why would anyone be surprised at his current attitude now?
The spinelessness of the Democrats in Congress who didn’t stand up and say “no” during this Cheney Puppet’s approval hearings is appalling!
Sorry for the double posting, but I just came across this disgusting dispay of the usual arrogance of this current administration:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-torture7feb07,1,3156438.story?ctrack=8&cset=true
Why is it so diffcult to accept the fact that some people–like those who strap explosives onto two mentally retarded women and them send them into a marketplace full of people who have come out to buy pets because the violence seems finally to be dropping and detonate those explosives by remote control … or who deliberately target women and children who are buying bread …. or women and children who are waiting to greet visiting lawmakers … or who hijack airplanes with children on their way to Disneyland and ram them into a building full of secretaries and middle managers, etc., etc., etc.–probably deserve a rather lengthy waterboarding?
Robert:
I admire your swimming upstream on this subject. To be willing to face the withering and hurtful comments you are sure to receive takes some courage. But as I’ve observed often on this venue, people here don’t seem overly concerned by the murderous activities of the islamo-fascists, only by America’s efforts to combat them. But I’ve come to believe that when the next attack comes on American soil, and it most surely will, they will finally understand what is we face, and will be willing to at least condemn the other side with as much enthusiasm and fire as they expend on condemning Bush, Cheney et al. You have to keep in mind that these folks (the Commonweal roster) are for the most part gentle academics, reflective scholars and parsers of language, and the hellish visions of war and violence are simply too much for them, but they mean well, and I have developed a certain fondness for them and their endearing and predictable (but not always predictable) responses.
Robert
“…..etc., etc., etc.–probably deserve a rather lengthy waterboarding?
The only problem is that it is difficult (at least for me) to see that as a Christian attitude. But then again I am not in the U.S, but in India well protected by my Christian, Hindu and Muslim brethren.
Those of us who breathed in the wreckage and the murdered in the days following Sept. 11 do not need to be reminded of the evils of terrorism. Vengeance does not serve U.S. interests. And when we torture, not only do we violate the law, but we become like those who seek our demise.
Amen to Grant!
I also found Mukasey very weak on the issue of Attorney firings and political interference: it’s we won’t do that now but let’s not hav eany accountability for past actions.
How sad!
Grant:
So waterboarding an OBL foot soldier is exactly equivalent to sawing someone’s head off on international TV. Or deliberately bombing a bunch of kids getting candy from GIs. Or equipping two Downs Syndrome women with strap-on explosives and sending them out to commit murder. I frankly can’t accept that you truly believe that. You seem to me a fair and decent person; certainly You have treated me fairly and civilly, even when you’ve dispatched your emails rebuking me for a blogging transgression. Waterboarding is probably one of the most frightening of all interrogation procedures to experience, but it lasts about ten seconds, and except for the fact that the waterboardee has had the bejesus scared out of him, is no worse for wear.
I will repeat: I consider torture to be defined as such things as the chopping off of fingers or toes, searing with a hot iron, pulling out fingernails, squeezing the head in a vice, or crucifiction etc., procedures that physically maim. These are absolutely unnecessary and truly inhumane. Is waterboarding unpleasant and scary? You bet, but it is not torture in my book. And I would be willing to say that to our Lord and take the consequences. Actually, I have, in my ongoing mental arguments and debates with Him. So far I’ve gotten no feedback, but it’s sure to come.
“So waterboarding an OBL foot soldier is exactly equivalent to sawing someone’s head off on international TV. Or deliberately bombing a bunch of kids getting candy from GIs. Or equipping two Downs Syndrome women with strap-on explosives and sending them out to commit murder.”
Nice to play around with the words “exactly equivalent.” In a sense that all your examples are crimes of vengeance, yes, they are the same. Your OBL foot soldier will probably survive, so the end results of your examples are different. However, the perpetrators of all these acts incur a grave moral damage. They may not recognize it, and some may explain it away from a sense of needfulness, but the gravity of what they do remains.
Robert, my question for you is this: Is the use of waterboarding primarily a mechanism of vengeance? Or do you support the Bush administration’s line that such methods are needful in order to get the truth out of our enemies?
I suspect that some in the Bush Administration believe the former, because if they think torture is a reliable truth serum, they’ve been watching too much tv.
Todd:
“Robert, my question for you is this: Is the use of waterboarding primarily a mechanism of vengeance? Or do you support the Bush administration’s line that such methods are needful in order to get the truth out of our enemies?”
Waterboarding used for vengeance would be gravely sinful. Its not about vengeance, it’s about gaining information with a reasonable expectation that the information thus gained will save American and/or allied lives.
Does it work for gaining information? It is my understanding that waterboarding is incredibly frightening and unpleasant beyond description. Myself, they wouldn’t even need to complete the procedure; I’d tell them everything I know in a New York microsecond, and that’s the point. It is from looking into my own probable reaction to being waterboarded that I know it works for gaining information.
It is disheartning to see that you impute the worst possible motives to Bush et al. It is also very sad that a fellow American is so eager to do so.
Robert, you would be more credible (tho not completely) if you wrote “fellow Christian” instead of fellow American. Remember the Samaritan was the hated enemy, yet Jesus makes him the example of doing God’s will rather than the Chosen People. Once we disavow the Sermon on the Mount we lose our identity. So-called Christians have tried. America is not God’s chosen people either. What description defines us?
“Its not about vengeance, it’s about gaining information with a reasonable expectation that the information thus gained will save American and/or allied lives.”
So, your position is that torture is as effective as veritaserum?
“I’d tell them everything I know in a New York microsecond, and that’s the point.”
Hopefully not the point, or you’d be in a lot of trouble.
“It is from looking into my own probable reaction to being waterboarded that I know it works for gaining information.”
Unfortunately, I suspect that many enemies of the US are trained to offer enough plausible information so as to render anything they say suspect. Do they stop choking if they tell the Gitmo guys the bomb for NYC is really in Philly? More to the point, do we have Bin Laden yet?
“It is disheartning to see that you impute the worst possible motives to Bush et al. It is also very sad that a fellow American is so eager to do so.”
Reading comprehension, my friend. I said some Bushies probably use it as vengeance. We saw it at Abu Ghraib. What is truly disheartening is this administration’s glaring incompetence in conducting a war. A truth serum is a magical fantasy. If somebody doesn’t want to tell you something you don’t know, there is no guarantee you can force it out of them. What if we found out that the CIA’s faulty intelligence was obtained from torturing prisoners? Wouldn’t that be a kick?
Bill:
I honestly don’t understand what you are telling me. My statement was meant not only for fellow Christians but for all Americans. What is your issue about credibility? Are Christians the only Americans allowed the practice of imputing the nobler of two (or more) motives to an adversary?
And I don’t understand the context of your statement,
“Remember the Samaritan was the hated enemy, yet Jesus makes him the example of doing God’s will rather than the Chosen People”
Are you saying that since OBL & associates are “the hated enemy” that we ought to regard them as the possible vessels of Christ’s teaching?
Todd:
Fortunately information can be verified. And point taken about your “some in the Bush administration” versus my “Bush et al”. My bad. Your statement,
“Hopefully not the point, or you’d be in a lot of trouble.” What is the context of that? That I’d be in a lot of trouble if I were in the military and gave up info? Well yeah.
Bob, pardon me for being obtuse. We’d all be in a lot of trouble if the feds started using waterboarding on its own citizens.
And if information can be verified, why are we bothering with torture in the first place? It sounds like those guys who wear belts with their suspenders.
You do realize the verification thing sounds very much like circular reasoning. Suppose the feds catch a few presumed terrorists. Each gives a different target. Which one do you believe? Torture them all a little more and get three new answers. The one who dies without changing his or her story: is that the one you believe? Do you go with on-the-ground intelligence about telephone traffic or rental cars or student visas? Are we really so desperate to think that US adversaries are dumb enough not to have a plan to thwart this kind of thing?
Honestly, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the Bush administration is intentionally playing dumb to lull its enemies to defeat like some kind of Muhammad Ali rope-a-dope.
Bob, I am saying that OBL and associates are your neighbor. Obviously, there has to be law and order in any society. Yet we must always make overtures and work to make our enemies into friends. Our faith teaches us that it is by the palm not the sword that we thrive. Sadly, we have too many examples of war mongering “Christians.”
At last somebody gets Catholic teaching on this subject right!
“Waterboarding …… would be gravely sinful” is a correct statement of Catholc teaching. No qualifiers needed.
Veritas Splendor:
[T]he Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”.131 The Second Vatican Council itself, in discussing the respect due to the human person, gives a number of examples of such acts: “Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit…”
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html
Torture is intrinsically evil, as is abortion, genocide and murder.
Todd and Bill:
I painstakingly composed what I thought were brilliant rejoinders to your last posts, only to find that when I hit the “submit comment” button my login had expired. So my brilliant rejoinders are lost, and right now I’m rather tired after all that effort. But you both made very good points; it’s just that the points were not correct in my view.
Commonweal ought to make the login period longer.
Bob, thanks for being gracious. The only sure way around the login jam is to start your own blog. If it’s any consolation (or encouragement) I’d visit.
Some people have questioned how “Christian” my views are here (and it’s hardly the first time). But I am not commenting as a Christian or a Catholic. If Commonweal restricted itself to issues of theology, doctrinal differences on the scripture, etc., I probably wouldn’t even read it let alone respond.
But since Commonweal posters choose to bring up real world political issues I choose to comment from a real world perspective–not as a Christian or a Catholic but as an American (indeed, one of the problems with the Islamic extremists is that they consider themselves Muslims first and Egyptians, Jordanians, Iraqis, etc., only second)
And Bob Scwartz,
Thanks for your kind observations–sorry you got drawn into the crossfire I set off (but I don’t check this over the weekend, whereas many of the other poisters did)
Robert Reid,
Perhaps you can explain further. Is your standpoint as a secular american or Christian American? One’s theology affects the way one looks at politics does it not. Or are they totally divorced? Jesus was crucified by the secular government. What does your Christianity mean to you in real life?