51st: Just Make Them Make Peace!
The United States, having failed to bring the Israeli and Palestinians into direct peace talks, is now being advised to impose a peace. So argues the Economist: “It is time for the world to agree on a settlement and impose it on the feuding parties.” Bernard Avishai at TPM agrees and urges “President Obama to propose a peace plan and rally the Quartet to impose it.” There are other rumblings of this sort in the inkosphere and the blogosphere.
A good idea? Stephen Walt isn’t so sure we have the right people in place citing twenty years of failed U.S. diplomacy on the Palestine-Israel conflict. He’s right about twenty years of failed diplomacy. Is this what Professor Walt means? A picture is worth twenty-five words!
So why not step back? Why not support the efforts of others, the Quartet, the Europeans, the Arabs, etc., by holding back on U.S. veto power in the UN, by making it clear to Israel that we are not its ace in the hole, and by telling the Palestinians it’s now or never–which it probably is.
Here’s another ingredient for the stew: “Price for Jonathan Pollard’s Release Should Be a Done Deal on Palestine.”
I think that Margaret is right that the U. S. should “step back.” The compelling case that William Pfaff makes in his “The Irony of Manifest Destiny” against the conception of the U. S. being the “superpower” that can and ought to impose order and spread our version of democracy around the globe supports, I believe, Margaret’s suggestion.
Somebody said that the U. N. created Israel so it can change what constitutes it. But what *is* the right thing to do? One nation or two? Possibly there just isn’t a workable solution without some charismatic new leadership on both sides.
It’s been hard for me to understand the intransience of our Israel foreign policy when even many, many American Jews are now criticizing this Israeli government.. However, in a recent article Noam Chomsky ( who was denied entrance into Israel in May) says that our military and commercial lobbies are even more powerful in Washington than the Israel lobby is. He says that Intel, for instance, has a major chip production plant there so it has a huge investment in the place.
Can this be? The global economy rears its ugly head again? Or should we put the blame mainly on American business and the military? Chomsky’s claim would explain a lot about the intransience of our foreign policy.
Oops — should be intransigence, not intransience.
“by holding back on U.S. veto power in the UN”
Is it possible that you believe the UN has some sort of moral authority?
The UN had the moral authority to create Israel, n’est-ce pas?
As you know, the United States regularly vetoes security council items at the behest of Israel, thereby derailing various proposals. In the matter of declaring a Palestinian state, I don’t see why the UN doesn’t have the “moral” authority to do so; the United States should vote in favor, but absent the willingness to do so, it should withhold the veto and let matters proceed. Of course, it might be better for Palestine-Israel to come to a mutual agreement under the pressure of world opinion, rather than a UN resolution. After the fact, the UN could recognize the Palestinian state.
” I don’t see why the UN doesn’t have the “moral” authority to do so.”
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, it won’t happen because the US will NOT dare risk alienating AIPAC and assorted other 5th column movements here in the US.
Now Jimmy, doesn’t hope spring eternal?
The reality is, left to their own devices, Israel will NEVER settle.
If the rest of the world (US included) finds that to be acceptable, than so be it…
However, recognizing Israel’s intractablilty vis-a-vis the Palestinians, anyone
who is concerned about it needs to BEG the League of Arab Nations, the EU, and the
United Nations resolve the issue and impose a peace. Then, back that peace
up with no-nonsense UN military support.
Israel will ONLY accede to a Palestinian state when they are finally backed (economically, politically, and militarily) into a corner. Then, in time, they will fight back and the
decision of the United Nations will need to be imposed militarily if need be.
Unfortunately for us Americans, the US Government has never shown any willingness
to restrain its unconditional support of Israel. I would hazard a guess that the US most probably provides Israel’s MAIN financial and military support. If the US doesn’t step back and take stock of the situation, then we, the US citizens will inevitably pay the price.
This year marks the 10th Anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Can anyone say with conviction that our unflagging support of Israel did not lead, at least in part, to those attacks?
When will Washington finally admit that Israel, who is supposed to ‘protect our interests in the Middle East’ is instead the cause of our problems in the Middle East. Duh?
Wake up, DC, and smell the coffee!
“The UN had the moral authority to create Israel, n’est-ce pas?”
If so, then the State of Israel has the right to exist, and therefore the right of self-defense.
“Can anyone say with conviction that our unflagging support of Israel did not lead, at least in part, to those attacks?”
The sad thing is that when the inevitable mushroom cloud rises over Tel Aviv, some Israel-haters will be smugly pleased, others will be relieved that the troublesome Jews have now been eliminated…and most of the Israel-haters will at least say “oh, well, the chickens came home to roost.” Sick.
Mr/Ms Flanagan: rhetorical flourishes don’t add up to an argument.
To disperse your cloud of worries: The right of Israel to exist is not the question before us. Israel does exist and should exist. What we need to ask is this: Is Israel’s unwillingness to live within its internationally recognized and legally established borders a danger to its future. Yes, it is.
If there is an inevitable mushroom cloud, which is unlikely, the chances are even that it will be over Teheran (or thereabouts) as over Jerusalem. Keep on ear open to all of threats that are hurled around.
Yes! Sick!
“What we need to ask is this: Is Israel’s unwillingness to live within its internationally recognized and legally established borders a danger to its future. Yes, it is.”
Given the historical unremitting and undeniable passion of surrounding Arab nations to exterminate the State of Israel – how many wars did they launch (even against the supposedly sacrosanct 1948 borders) before Israel finally established a nuclear deterrent? – the 1948 borders are themselves a danger to the survival of Israel. Even the primitive Scud missiles that are deliberately fired at Israeli schools could cross over the thinnest part of the 1948 borders.
Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza a few years back…this was met with a barrage of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians from new rocket sites set up in Gaza. So much for giving land back to the Palestinians to make “peace”.
P Flanagan: Is it your position then that Israel should occupy the territory from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, perhaps even reincorporating Gaza?
If so, what is the status of the Palestinians who currently live on the West Bank (and in Gaza). Expel them? Let the live as non-citizens in a Jewish state? Israel remains a democracy but demographically ceases to be a Jewish state?
My position is that, until the Palestinians cease their unremitting efforts to murder every Israeli man, woman and child, that Israel take whatever actions it deems necessary to defend their citizens…just as every other nation on the earth has the legitimate right to do.
If the Palestinians threw down their weapons unilaterally, there would be peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis threw down their weapons unilaterally, they would all be killed.
“My position is that, until the Palestinians cease their unremitting efforts to murder every Israeli man, woman and child, that Israel take whatever actions it deems necessary to defend their citizens…just as every other nation on the earth has the legitimate right to do.”
Then do you admit that Palestine has precisely the same rights as Israel does?
“Then do you admit that Palestine has precisely the same rights as Israel does?”
Sure, in self-defense, they can kill all of the Israeli suicide bombers they can find.
Actually, I hate to break the news to you, but “Palestine” does not exist.
Ah, but Palestine does exist. It was part of the UN partition. You can’t very well say that the UN partition was all right in regards to Israel and not all right in regards to Palestine. But you have hit on the core of the problem. You don’t think that both sides have the same rights. You don’t have a case for this in law, but this is your sentiment.
And…Palestine existed before the Mandate. It was part of the Ottoman Empire. That’s one of the reasons so many people consider themselves Palestinians. A minor note with you Flannagan, The Palestinians were there before the Israelis.
“A minor note with you Flannagan, The Palestinians were there before the Israelis.”
Abraham might differ with you on that.
” but Palestine does exist. It was part of the UN partition. You can’t very well say that the UN partition was all right in regards to Israel and not all right in regards to Palestine. ”
Um, the Arabs in 1948 REJECTED the Palestine proposed in the UN partition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
so, I guess me and them are on the same side of this issue…Palestine does not exist and never did.
The natives are getting a wee bit restless —-
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=israels-labor-well-quit-if-no-progress-to-peace-2011-01-04
Israel’s Labor: We’ll quit if no progress to peace
Tuesday, January 4, 2011
JERUSALEM – The Associated Press
A top leader of Israel’s Labor Party threatened Monday to pull out of the government if there is no progress in peace talks, reflecting growing impatience with the stalemate in negotiations with the Palestinians.
I’d say that relying on the biblical story of Abraham is a bit ahistorical. I wouldn’t hang my political hat on it.
They say it takes ‘two to tango’, and it is the dance itself that threatens peace in the Middle-East, and in the US as well.
I am not a Jew hater.
My personal hope is that the Israeli Government must be forced to accept a Palestinian State (and vice-versa) and both Israel and Palestine must live with their UN-drawn borders.
Fact: Individual Israelis and Palestinians (including ex-military) believe in a peaceful solution. The government does not.
Fact: The US supports Israel unequivocally.
Fact: To try to bring attention to the unresolved Israeli/Palestinian problem, third parties have attacked US interests abroad and the US itself. (As well as interests of other nations)
What, P. Flanagan, would be your solution????
PF: Abraham was an Israeli??? Hmmm. Don’t think so.
….And neither was Moses.
Let’s let the Palestinians have the last word on this thread, shall we?
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2001/sep/24/gruesome_exhibit_marks/
Don’t think we should let you have the last word Flanagan.
Wherever you are stuck, the Israelis and Palestinians both seemed to have moved beyond September 24, 2001.
“the Israelis and Palestinians both seemed to have moved beyond September 24, 2001.”
You can click this link today or next week or next year and it will always return a recent news result:
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=palestinian+terror+attack
The only variable is how many innocent Israelis were murdered.
We’ve reached the second grade level of disputation here and it’s time to close.