Friends don’t let friends….. Updates
When your very best friend betrays you once again, you’ve got to wonder how come they’re still your best friend. You shower them with riches, good will, and unstinting support. Yet Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli PM, has once again told the U.S. to go **** ********! Time to find truer friends.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-envoy-speeds-to-mideast-in-effort-salvage-peace-talks-1.316122
http://www.juancole.com/2010/09/netanyahu-blows-off-us-mahmoud-abbas-pleads-for-settleme-freeze.html
UPDATE: The realist view: “One of the great myths of Middle East diplomacy is the old cliché that “the United States can’t want it more than the parties do.” This excuse for inaction is trotted out whenever the United States fails to exercise the enormous potential leverage at its disposal, and it’s just plain silly. There’s no reason why the United States can’t want a settlement more than Israel or the Palestinians do, particularly if the two sides are so mired in dysfunctional politics or old Likudnik dreams that they need to be pushed hard to make a deal. Unfortunately, this conflict isn’t just about them; it’s also about us. And when U.S. interests are at stake, we can want a solution just as much — and maybe even more — than they do.” Stephen Walt
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/09/27/settling_for_more_settlements
UPDATE: Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman has his own policy on negotiations: they seem to include the removal of Israeli Arabs from Israel. Didn’t we call this ethnic cleansing in Kosovo? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/world/middleeast/29nations.html?ref=world
And there’s this: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-jews-outraged-by-lieberman-s-un-speech-on-population-exchange-1.316298
Tags: Israel, Middle East, Palestine
I agree with Cole that the Obama Administration may have shown “diplomatic amateurism” in dealing with Netanyahu, who is as cagey a politician as there is. Netanyahu also knows that Obama can’t complain too loudly about Israel with U.S. mid-term elections coming up in about five weeks. If timing is everything in politics, then Netanyahu is a master at it.
Ho-hum. Nothing will happen. Netanyahu will remain a bully, the Israel Lobby will preen, and Obama will remain a sap. Nothing of substance will change until someone threatens the Israeli government — Likud or Labor or whoever — with diminution or suspension of aid. Which means, nothing will change.
The whole U.S. government is a sap because the American people are saps. Time to turn the ship.
Honestly, I almost always side with Israel, and this is no different.
As for the Israel-bashers on the left; I always urge that they take care and try to keep their balance of course.
In general, the more the Left cries or moans about something, the more comfortable I am with it. And so if old Netanyahu is riling up the Left, I will side with Netanyahu
As an American, I think it is best we side with and defend the Jews.
Ken, you’re a smart guy. So consider: Has the U.S.’s unstinting support for Israel really been a benefit to Israel? Or does it give this Israeli government (and some others before it) a false sense of security in doing what it wants on the West Bank?
Everything that goes on in the WB by way of settlements is illegal. The Israeli government has no legal basis for what it is permitting to go on there; even the U.S. government has regularly criticized the settlement policy (usually only rhetorically). When Obama and other president’s before him ask for a construction freeze, they are asking the Israeli government to consider the long-term consequences.
Telling Obama (and others before him) to stuff it brings the day of violent reckoning ever closer–and to no ones advantage.
Unquestioning supporters of Israel and Israelis and those who claim to “defend the Jews,” ought to be a bit more searching than they seem to be.
What will the Arab League tell Abbas?
It’s hardly about “left’ Isreal bashers” – talk about oversimplifications -but how to bring peace that the two leaders just said they were so serious about?
Bebe is beholden to his supporters for continuing some kind of settlement growth, but that’s not how real leadership comes along.
I agree with mrs. Steinfels that the American people are saps and unfortunately the gap grows as ideology continues to outpace histroical perspective.
The whole U.S. government is a sap because the American people are saps.
Margaret: I find it difficult to believe that you really meant to say that. Much as I disagree with you, which is usually always, I cannot accept that you have essentially told the American people that you think they are saps. I understand that this is a difficult time for liberals, but you have always (I thought) displayed a certain calmness, a well-considered thoughtfulness toward your percieved political enemies. Therefore I am going to assume that you had a bad day, and that you misspoke. The American people are not your enemies. God Bless.
Friends are not afraid to tell their friends the truth. The construction of illegal settlements by Israel will always be an obstacle to Peace. Terrorist groups such as hamas, will always be an obstacle to Peace.
BS: I took off from Professor McCarraher’s complaint that “Obama will remain a sap.”
My point: It is not the president alone who seems fixed in a Salute to Israel; Americans are either themselves ardent supporters or they are indifferent or they are ignorant. Most politicians are prisoners of this.
If it were otherwise, there would be serious discussions (and probably altercations) in this political season about U.S. policy toward the WB settlements. And in case you hadn’t noticed, liberals may be the most blind of all to our policy. But thanks for the blessing. As you noticed, I can always use it!
Ken — “The more the Left cries or moans about something, the more comfortable I am with it.” It would have been nice to hear about your comfort with slavery, segregation, child labor, the violent repression of union organization, the witholding of votes from women, and other cries and moans of the Left. all of which is to say that…
As for Nancy Danielson’s implication — the old Both Sides Are To Blame two-step — it remains an extraordinary obfuscation. The Israelis and the Palestinians are not on some equal playing field in terms of power or violence. The Israelis cast themselves in the role of Goliath here; they’re the ones with the overwhelming arsenal, conventional and nuclear; they’re the ones who have the uncritical support of an even larger Goliath, the U.S; they’re the ones who’ve routinely used that power to humiliate, oppress, and slaughter the Palestinian population; they’re the ones who’ve systematically engaged in a policy toward the people of Gaza that would be called what it is — a crime under international law — if it were committed by any other power. and everything I’ve just written has been written or said, not only by Palestinians or “liberals,” but by many American Jews and Israelis.
BTW, Peggy, you’re wrong that the only options in this debate are “ardent supporters,” “indifferent,” or “ignorant.” There’s a fourth option: well-informed people who believe that the Palestinian people have received appalling treatment from Israel. No, to Ken and Jimmy Mac, that doesn’t justify or excuse terrorism, and it doesn’t mean destroying the state of Israel. It does, however, explain Palestinian violence. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.
Eugene, to be clear, when comparing life in Gaza v. The West Bank, it is clear that the problem is not Israel, it is hamas.
Nancy you don’t know what you’re talking about, ergo…..
Oh Eugene, this is too much fun ”It would have been nice to hear about your comfort with slavery, segregation, child labor, the violent repression of union organization, the witholding of votes from women, and other cries and moans of the Left. all of which is to say that…”
Hmm, let’s see Eugene:
Slavery – Democrats instituted slavery and they liked it so much they almost tore the country apart fighting a war to defend the institution of slavery. Lincoln was the first Republican president and he did away with slavery, for which he was assassinated.
Segregation – Democrats instituted this and defended via the KKK and other less violent means it until about 1970. If not for Republican votes, the Civil Rights act would not have become law. More Republicans voted for the 1964 Civil Rights act than Democrats.
Trade Unions – I must admit that Republicans did not get this one right.
Women Voting – Oh please spare me on this one. In the 1900′s, as many Democrat men probably moaned and groaned as Republican guys over the idea of women being allowed to vote.
You need a basic course in political literacy. Democrats aren’t the Left.
I honestly don’t see this as a game of political football. There is no endgame to the expansion of settlements that does not forecast disaster and despair, if not horror. Without recognition of that fact, there is only a collision with the future. It’s like the driver arguing with the passenger about who got the directions wrong as he drives off a cliff. In the end, that argument doesn’t matter.
Barbara, if you truly believe this is at the cliff (as well you may) then arguments don’t matter.
I don’t think we’re there–yet. There is an endgame; and post U.S. elections and the departure of Rahm Emanuel (too clever by half), I am hoping that Obama’s essential intelligence and good sense will take over and give the Israeli government the shock treatment that could galvanize the still-majority of Israelis into a reality check, and who are willing to live with a two-state solution. I grant this may seem far-fetched, but if, as I think, Israel has the right to exist then the reality check, though sobering, will allow the emergence of a Palestinian state that is a real state and with an economy that could co-exist with that of Israel.
In this battle, I fear, the current governing class of Israel are on the losing side, if not this year, then in the not too distant future. Better to deal now.
And let me add (though I will bow to my Chicago friends on this) Rahm Emanuel will not win the Chicago mayoral.
We’re not at the endgame yet. But there is no endgame to settlement expansion that isn’t appalling. That’s the point. So long as the will to expand settlements is unstoppable, however long the road is, it’s a road over a cliff.
What about an endgame that creates two states with borders more or less as currently discussed. The near settlements join Israel in exchange for territory ceded elsewhere to Palestine (I gather in the North from things I’ve read). Jerusalem is divided; East Jerusalem becomes the capital of Palestine with transit rights to holy places. Israel can offer the outlier settlers incentives to move back within internationally recognized borders. Those who refuse become citizens of the Palestinian state with the responsibilities and rights thereof. No doubt, a minority will stay where they are and there may be violence by and against those who don’t want to be citizens of Palestine. Farfetched? Perhaps.
Nancy Danielson, where in your strange lexicon of words and spellings is the line between a “freedom fighter” and a “terrorist”?
Where too is the line between a good guy democratically elected political party which has a military force to rise to its defense from an aggressive enemy and a bad guy democratically elected political party which has a military force to rise to its defense from an aggressive enemy?
You say “it is clear”…sorry, the only place it is clear is in your own mind!
I just received this from a friend and I do not know if he wrote it or is quoting another source however, it does appear to be an interesting perspective related to this topic:
While teenage conscripts do the dangerous jobs, the army’s senior ranks retire in their early forties on full pensions, with lengthy second careers ahead in business or politics. Many also go on to profit from the burgeoning “homeland security” industries in which Israel excels. Small specialist companies led by former generals offer a home to retired soldiers drawing on years of experience running the occupation.
Those who spent their service in the West Bank and Gaza Strip quickly learn how to apply and refine new technologies for surveillance, crowd control and urban warfare that find ready markets overseas. In 2006 Israel’s defence exports reached $3.4bn, making the country the fourth largest arms dealer in the world.
These groups fear that a peace agreement and Palestinian statehood would turn Israel overnight into an insignificant Middle Eastern state, one that would soon be starved of its enormous US subsidies. In addition, Israel would be forced to right a historic wrong and redirect the region’s plundered resources, including its land and water, back to Palestinians, depriving Jews of their established entitlements.
Sure they are Eugene – what is the matter with you?
Margaret, I guess the way I see it is: permitting or even promoting expanded settlements is basically the flipside of not allowing what you are suggesting to happen. A government that can’t or won’t stop settlements can’t or won’t willingly leave settlers “behind” as aliens in another country. I agree that if it just agreed to the borders and wished people good luck in their newly adopted home country, 80% of settlers, and mayb 95% of settlers with children, would return to “Israel.” I just don’t really see that happening. However, it does suggest a different negotiating tactic for the U.S.: To tell Israel that it stands by the internationally sanctioned borders no matter how many settlers live outside of them. Israel won’t take that seriously either.
At some point, it shouldn’t matter what Israel will or won’t take seriously. What will matter is that the U.S. signs off on supporting what is becoming a dysfunctional state (cf the Lieberman comments linked above). John Borst’s cite above (and it would be better to know where it came from) points to Israel’s deep dependence on the United States. I’d call that leverage.
Margaret, we have leverage the same way a wealthy parent has leverage over their child. Why don’t many parents use that leverage? Because even if, say, dad sees the writing on the wall and wants to cut the cord, in many cases, mom simply can’t stand it. Or vice versa. Potential leverage isn’t actual leverage. Every spoiled rich kid in the universe knows that.
Calling on your ealier metaphor, is that why so many spoiled rich kids wind up going over the cliff?
This is just a suggestion, an area could be created as a “buffer” zone where the Israeli and Palestinian people would have dual-citizenship and share the land and resources as well as the governing of that area. I would include the area that has already been developed illegally, and insist that Israel declare it to be part of the “buffer” zone. Once the boundries of the “buffer” zone are determined, aid can be directed to the “buffer” zone area to be used to build the infrastructure that will serve all Israeli and Palestinians who wish to live peacefully as dual-citizens.
When they finish grappling with this year’s census, we should send our best gerrymanderers to sculpt out territories favorable to both sides.
Unfortunately, that has the same problem as every two-state solution — there will still be two sides, and now they will be institutionalized into a permanent existence. (see Pakistan and India) What is needed is a solution that allows Israelis and Palestinians to see themselves as joined together, not separated. Since such a solution does not exist, the two state solution needs to be accepted as a deeply flawed, almost reprehensible way to deal with the problems. That is hard to sell.
A man had two sons, and…the father divided the property between them…