Comments on: Fr. Roy Bourgeois has 30 days to recant on women’s ordination http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512 Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:47:30 +0200 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Joseph Jaglowicz http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33489 Joseph Jaglowicz Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:48:19 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33489 Kathy, I'm glad you brought up the three modes of infallible teaching. It got me to thinking of an oddity of sorts, namely, that the third mode (ordinary universal magisterium) requires ALL the bishops in communion with Rome to agree on a matter to make a teaching infallible --- but the second mode (ecumenical/general council) apparently, as you've noted, does not require unanimity but only a majority (?) of bishops present at a vote; we know that not all bishops would necessarily attend a particular session where a vote might occur. As I say, this arrangement seems odd in its seeming lack of consistency. (I must admit I'd never picked up on this apparent quirk in procedure.) I agree we should listen to the bishops. However, the rub might be that even if one has an open mind as you've noted, one might conclude reasonably and in good faith that reception is not warranted. Regarding politics in religion, whenever Rome (or the local chancery) promulgates teaching/policy on matters affecting the lives of the laity (and, yes, even of priests and religious), the experience automatically opens up the possibility of politics intruding. People want a "say" in such matters, and, of course, they cannot/will not ignore their and others' experience as it relates to a new mandate/etc. from the bishop or pope. Kathy, I’m glad you brought up the three modes of infallible teaching. It got me to thinking of an oddity of sorts, namely, that the third mode (ordinary universal magisterium) requires ALL the bishops in communion with Rome to agree on a matter to make a teaching infallible — but the second mode (ecumenical/general council) apparently, as you’ve noted, does not require unanimity but only a majority (?) of bishops present at a vote; we know that not all bishops would necessarily attend a particular session where a vote might occur. As I say, this arrangement seems odd in its seeming lack of consistency. (I must admit I’d never picked up on this apparent quirk in procedure.)

I agree we should listen to the bishops. However, the rub might be that even if one has an open mind as you’ve noted, one might conclude reasonably and in good faith that reception is not warranted.

Regarding politics in religion, whenever Rome (or the local chancery) promulgates teaching/policy on matters affecting the lives of the laity (and, yes, even of priests and religious), the experience automatically opens up the possibility of politics intruding. People want a “say” in such matters, and, of course, they cannot/will not ignore their and others’ experience as it relates to a new mandate/etc. from the bishop or pope.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33477 Kathy Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:56:53 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33477 There are several different ways to know the truth regarding faith and morals. One is a Council's definition of truth; this does not have to be unanimous. Another is a Pope's decree ex cathedra. Another is the overwhelming judgment of the People of God. It seems to me that believing in the express teaching of the Church implies a prior belief in 2 things: 1. Belief in the special revelation 2. Belief in the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church These are necessary but not sufficient preambles to assent to current teaching. Some other things that are necessary include a desire to be in communion of mind and heart, a mind open to study and reception, and an ability (necessary in a republic, necessary since the First Letter to the Corinthians) to de-politicize religion. There are several different ways to know the truth regarding faith and morals. One is a Council’s definition of truth; this does not have to be unanimous. Another is a Pope’s decree ex cathedra. Another is the overwhelming judgment of the People of God.

It seems to me that believing in the express teaching of the Church implies a prior belief in 2 things:

1. Belief in the special revelation
2. Belief in the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church

These are necessary but not sufficient preambles to assent to current teaching. Some other things that are necessary include a desire to be in communion of mind and heart, a mind open to study and reception, and an ability (necessary in a republic, necessary since the First Letter to the Corinthians) to de-politicize religion.

]]> By: Bill deHaas http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33469 Bill deHaas Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:31:35 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33469 To add to your thoughts - Vatican I is a good example of evolving and changing unanimity. Historically, as Pius pushed for and got his infallibility doctrine approved; some 30-40% of the bishops present at Vatican I left before the vote, before the papal pronouncement because they did NOT agree with this infallibility doctrine. In fact, one of the Popes in the 13th century (later named a saint) declared any type of church or papal infallibility to be a grave sin. History shows that the church, its doctrines, its pronouncements evolve, change, grow - a process that does not always move forward or progress. One of my favorite quotes from a Jesuit scholar - "The church finally gets there late; and out of breath!" To add to your thoughts – Vatican I is a good example of evolving and changing unanimity. Historically, as Pius pushed for and got his infallibility doctrine approved; some 30-40% of the bishops present at Vatican I left before the vote, before the papal pronouncement because they did NOT agree with this infallibility doctrine.

In fact, one of the Popes in the 13th century (later named a saint) declared any type of church or papal infallibility to be a grave sin.

History shows that the church, its doctrines, its pronouncements evolve, change, grow – a process that does not always move forward or progress. One of my favorite quotes from a Jesuit scholar – “The church finally gets there late; and out of breath!”

]]> By: Joseph Jaglowicz http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33410 Joseph Jaglowicz Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:47:26 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33410 Kathy, how and when do we know that all the bishops and all the laity "show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals?" Does this unanimity occur all at once, or is it process, perhaps one that occurs over a long span of time --- maybe over decades or even centuries? Is the Holy Spirit not at work during dissent? Kathy, how and when do we know that all the bishops and all the laity “show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals?”

Does this unanimity occur all at once, or is it process, perhaps one that occurs over a long span of time — maybe over decades or even centuries?

Is the Holy Spirit not at work during dissent?

]]> By: Bob Nunz http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33405 Bob Nunz Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:20:26 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33405 Today's NYT says Fr. Ray has gone home to be with his 95 year old father who supports him. Terribly sad. I wonder if the commentator er efrom Maryknoll is speaking for most of his fellows or himself. Putting unity first in a divided Church(and I think we'd all agree it is divided and to some degree polarized) surely requires more than assent to the hierarchy. For that itself is one of the major division points that we continue to thrash out here. Today’s NYT says Fr. Ray has gone home to be with his 95 year old father who supports him.
Terribly sad.
I wonder if the commentator er efrom Maryknoll is speaking for most of his fellows or himself.
Putting unity first in a divided Church(and I think we’d all agree it is divided and to some degree polarized) surely requires more than assent to the hierarchy. For that itself is one of the major division points that we continue to thrash out here.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33374 Kathy Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:37:14 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33374 The inerrancy of the People of God according to Vatican II is not like a democratic election, in which a bare majority can change the course of a state or the meaning of a long-held institution. It has to be unanimous. It's not sociological but mystical. <i>The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name.(Cf. Heb. 13, 15) The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(Cf. Jn. 2, 20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of <b>the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith</b> when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” (Cfr. S. Augustinus, D Praed. Sanct. 14, 27: PL 44, 980.) they show <b>universal agreement in matters of faith and morals.</b> That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of (people) but truly the word of God.(Cf. 1 Thess. 2, 13) Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints,(Cf. Jud. 3) penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life.</i> It's really not enough, in the Church, to engineer a sea change in thinking. You have to put unity first. The inerrancy of the People of God according to Vatican II is not like a democratic election, in which a bare majority can change the course of a state or the meaning of a long-held institution. It has to be unanimous. It’s not sociological but mystical.

The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name.(Cf. Heb. 13, 15) The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(Cf. Jn. 2, 20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” (Cfr. S. Augustinus, D Praed. Sanct. 14, 27: PL 44, 980.) they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of (people) but truly the word of God.(Cf. 1 Thess. 2, 13) Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints,(Cf. Jud. 3) penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life.

It’s really not enough, in the Church, to engineer a sea change in thinking. You have to put unity first.

]]> By: Joseph S. O Leary http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33372 Joseph S. O Leary Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:33:50 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33372 "Why would Christ found a Church that was fallible? If it is true that Christ Has founded His Church, then His Church would be infallible." He said the Spirit would lead us into all truth -- but this implies that we will live among lost of uncertainties on the way to that goal. "This is not to say that the Church’s members are not fallible but rather that the Teaching of His Church, from the beginning, is infallible." Vatican II talks of the infallibility of the people of God. “Why would Christ found a Church that was fallible? If it is true that Christ Has founded His Church, then His Church would be infallible.”

He said the Spirit would lead us into all truth — but this implies that we will live among lost of uncertainties on the way to that goal.

“This is not to say that the Church’s members are not fallible but rather that the Teaching of His Church, from the beginning, is infallible.”

Vatican II talks of the infallibility of the people of God.

]]> By: Joseph S. O Leary http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33370 Joseph S. O Leary Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:30:18 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33370 "remains an open question" -- nice to see Rahner thought so too. “remains an open question” — nice to see Rahner thought so too.

]]> By: Susan Gannon http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33346 Susan Gannon Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:31:54 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33346 Karl Rahner had a good response to the CDF’s Inter Insigniores in Chapter three, “Women and the Priesthood,” of Volume XX of “Theological Investigations.” Here’s the way the chapter ends: “The Roman declaration says that in this question the Church must remain faithful to Jesus Christ. This is of course true in principle. But what fidelity means in connection with this problem remains an open question. Consequently the discussion must continue. Cautiously, with mutual respect, critical of bad arguments on both sides, critical of irrelevant emotionalism expressly or tacitly influencing both sides, but also with that courage for historical change which is part of the fidelity which the Church owes to its Lord.” I think he would favor both “better teaching,” and the development of a deeper, more adequate theology of the priestly ministry. Karl Rahner had a good response to the CDF’s Inter Insigniores in Chapter three, “Women and the Priesthood,” of Volume XX of “Theological Investigations.” Here’s the way the chapter ends:

“The Roman declaration says that in this question the Church must remain faithful to Jesus Christ. This is of course true in principle. But what fidelity means in connection with this problem remains an open question. Consequently the discussion must continue. Cautiously, with mutual respect, critical of bad arguments on both sides, critical of irrelevant emotionalism expressly or tacitly influencing both sides, but also with that courage for historical change which is part of the fidelity which the Church owes to its Lord.”

I think he would favor both “better teaching,” and the development of a deeper, more adequate theology of the priestly ministry.

]]> By: Bill deHaas http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33344 Bill deHaas Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:26:26 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33344 Here is a comment by Sidney Callahan over at America Blog: Shortcut to: http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/blog.cfm?blog_id=2 Here is a comment by Sidney Callahan over at America Blog:

Shortcut to: http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/blog.cfm?blog_id=2

]]> By: Joseph Gannon http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33343 Joseph Gannon Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:16:34 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33343 There is nothing like an implausible argument to encourage dissent from a proposed teaching. Nor does vigor of asseveration help. Ordinatio sacerdotalis is a case in point. There is nothing like an implausible argument to encourage dissent from a proposed teaching. Nor does vigor of asseveration help. Ordinatio sacerdotalis is a case in point.

]]> By: Gerald Brazier http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33338 Gerald Brazier Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:30:56 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33338 For those unfamiliar with Peter Stenifels' A People Adrift, or for those who have forgotten, he has about 12 pages (far less than 75 and beginning on page 273) discussing the women's ordination issue. One quote, "There are three possible outcomes: Women will be ordained, or the church will render its teaching convincing, or Catholic commitment to equality and justice for half the human race will be in doubt." In these pages, among many other things, Peter analyzes the arguments (and there are several) that have been used or are now being used to exclude women from the priesthood and indicates why a significant number of people remain unconvinced, even by the current favorite based on the imagery of the Church as the bride of Christ and the complementarity of the sexes. Another quote, "Even the best-made arguments will not get a hearing if they appear self-serving, overly subtle, and blind to the patriarchal biases riddling Christian tradition. He notes that following the issuance of Inter Insignores in 1976 (barring the ordination of women) one theologian noted that "Roma locuta, causa finita" had become "Roma locuta, causa stimulata!" For those unfamiliar with Peter Stenifels’ A People Adrift, or for those who have forgotten, he has about 12 pages (far less than 75 and beginning on page 273) discussing the women’s ordination issue. One quote, “There are three possible outcomes: Women will be ordained, or the church will render its teaching convincing, or Catholic commitment to equality and justice for half the human race will be in doubt.”
In these pages, among many other things, Peter analyzes the arguments (and there are several) that have been used or are now being used to exclude women from the priesthood and indicates why a significant number of people remain unconvinced, even by the current favorite based on the imagery of the Church as the bride of Christ and the complementarity of the sexes. Another quote, “Even the best-made arguments will not get a hearing if they appear self-serving, overly subtle, and blind to the patriarchal biases riddling Christian tradition.
He notes that following the issuance of Inter Insignores in 1976 (barring the ordination of women) one theologian noted that “Roma locuta, causa finita” had become “Roma locuta, causa stimulata!”

]]> By: Barbara http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33330 Barbara Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:33:51 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33330 It also had a more recent article talking about the tensions inherent in advocating a society that promotes gender equality while maintaining a Church structure that precludes it. Also quite good. It also had a more recent article talking about the tensions inherent in advocating a society that promotes gender equality while maintaining a Church structure that precludes it. Also quite good.

]]> By: Bill Mazzella http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33329 Bill Mazzella Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:17:48 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33329 Commonweal had a great issue of Women's ordination and infallibility in an issue 12 years ago. Quite good. http://216.239.116.135/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n2_v123/ai_17958347/pg_1 Commonweal had a great issue of Women’s ordination and infallibility in an issue 12 years ago. Quite good.

http://216.239.116.135/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n2_v123/ai_17958347/pg_1

]]> By: Nancy Danielson http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512&cpage=2#comment-33312 Nancy Danielson Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:17:55 +0000 http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2512#comment-33312 "I will not leave you orphans."-Christ Why would Christ found a Church that was fallible? If it is true that Christ Has founded His Church, then His Church would be infallible. This is not to say that the Church's members are not fallible but rather that the Teaching of His Church, from the beginning, is infallible. “I will not leave you orphans.”-Christ

Why would Christ found a Church that was fallible? If it is true that Christ Has founded His Church, then His Church would be infallible.

This is not to say that the Church’s members are not fallible but rather that the Teaching of His Church, from the beginning, is infallible.

]]>